From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

[Forrest]

I freely admit I’m running scared. It’s not what happens with metals…those are reasonably predictable by iTulip’s best guys, within reason, and I learn more all the time.

I have gold and a bit of silver, the house is paid for, and the real estate (income units) if sold even in this market would net as much as is owed against it. All that’s nice if our society doesn’t change too much, too fast.

But I don’t like what I see.

The daily Market is up, the futures are down, and the price of gold…well, it’s nice to see it above $1,000.00, since it seems to be the tipoff that a very nice pump and dump is in progress.

The Mainstream Media reports nothing…bought and paid for by the ‘very left’ and their corporate Tarp bailed out friends. So, barring the financial channel’s, I find what info I need on the internet, from books, and a lot of double checking of facts, and watch my ticker updates day and night.

But now we really are up against a possible turn away from our Constitution. Not that the current administration hasn’t already run rampant over law after law, but if they get their public option to provide Government Health Care, eviscerating rather than reforming the current legal/structural/financial/ health insurance system in place, power will shift to control of the people, not by the people, and debt peonage will soon follow.…if not immediately, certainly very soon.

I don’t mind burying the gold, but running for the hills, as other generations have done is beyond my ability. My dad’s 84, and fragile except with a shotgun, and I limp badly. So no running.

But a Marxist flavored Autocracy, hand in hand with all the corporate giants really bothers me. So does the UNEP Treaty which has been twice before congress, and quietly pulled as not being quite the right time to finish up consolidating NAFTA. (UNEP combines all three NAFTA countries into one region, and divides up things into new, larger states/countries)…well, I don’t really fancy a rush toward globalism.

I like going slow, because I hate change. Most people do. I could put up with all the creeping socialism everywhere because of the incrementalism, and under a law abiding society, I can figure out the rules, and get by.

But the country isn’t following a lot of the rules anymore…just the ones that suit them, and I tend to despise marxism.

If the radical Left takes over quickly, I know what I will do.

Do any of you? :eek:

[kartius919]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

What is Marxism? What is Marxist flavored Autocracy? What is radical Left? What is non radical left? Is there a non radical left? Or all left radicals? Free radicals? What is a radical? Square root of one half is radical 2 over two? Are rights non-radicals? Are there radical rights? What is right? Is right right? Or center all the better? How quickly is quickly?

[Forrest]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

What is Marxism? What is Marxist flavored Autocracy? What is radical Left? What is non radical left? Is there a non radical left? Or all left radicals? Free radicals? What is a radical? Square root of one half is radical 2 over two? Are rights non-radicals? Are there radical rights? What is right? Is right right? Or center all the better? How quickly is quickly?

　
Dear me…Kartius, you are nitpicking to death a fairly honest statement of the danger I view the country is in, and that it might mean trouble for some part of the political spectrum, and for members on this board. I don’t speak against any party, just ideologies.

Naturally, we don’t have a Marxist/Communist Party influencing our Democrats supposedly, anymore than we have Corporate interests influencing elections, or Religions influencing Republicans! And none, ever, could possibly be interested in anything but the best outcome for everyone's future, based on that faded old Constitution.


“Marxism is the economic, social, political, pseudo-scientific philosophy, theory, belief, or system based on the works of Karl Marx of Germany. The theory seeks the elimination of the notion of private property in order to gain control of the economic "means of production" by taking it from the bourgeois (the wealthy or propertied class) for the benefit of the proletariat (working class.) His philosophy of history was called "historical materialism" in which his goal was to bring about the end of history, by means of an eventual perfect, classless, utopian society he called Communism.

Marxist notions of collectivization and redistribution of the property of the bourgeois puts it on a collision course with the economic philosophy of Capitalism and free markets, and also with the social-governmental philosophies related to Democracy, in the oldest, pre-Marxism sense of that word. Marxism seeks to promote class warfare or, today, at least, class strife, and succeeds best where clear, major delineations exist between classes.” ~V. Biorseth~


Naturally, we do have a few people here and there with Marxist beliefs, and they are welcome to them…until they start breaking the law, instead of using it. At that point, I would like someone to hold up the Constitution of the United States…the ORIGINAL one…, and point out that laws were meant to be followed, which to me means pretty much everything regarding income tax, and various other anomalies, like fiat currency.

I will presume that you have sufficient education to look up the definition of all the other words and phrases you don't understand, and get on with answering your essential question.

You are saying, or asking of me, where do I stand, what is left or right of center to me politically, how do I think, what do I believe, and why.

As a Liberal Constitutionalist, The Constitutionalist part in my view means I believe in the laws of our county as originally envisioned by the founders of the country, and the Liberal part means that I believe that everyone should have the same minimum opportunities and benefits, such as food, and education, until they can take care of themselves. In other words, we help each other out. How it is done is irrelevant to me, as long as it is fair.

From birth to death we should take care of each other to the extent that we can medically, as well as physically, where there is real need...not just a lazy hand reaching out for more freebies. It can be done, indeed, has been done, as early as 10,000 or more years ago. In fact, many societies managed fairly well until about 1917...not perfectly, of course, but many of us tried to even things out voluntarily.

However, after a child is 18 years of age, they should be on their own unless they are taking, and excelling in advanced studies. The parents involved do not need the same minimal care unless they are disabled, or beyond a statutory retirement age, as decided by the people in an open election, nor should a child under 18 receive unnecessary food and education assistance if his parents can pay for it. I love vouchers.

If the people want to vote for more care or less, that is their right. For those that are invariably poor through bad management or the trials of life, I do believe that as wealthy a society as ours can afford to pool a fund to cover their basic needs. That doesn't mean setting them up in more than a boarding house, with communal dinners, and it doesn't mean giving them their own computer, their own cell phone, and a Dish Network account. It also doesn't mean I have to agree to give away money they never earned to buy things they can earn for themselves, unless they are elderly or disabled, and even then, I think the family should step in first, if there is one.

Rights to me are what the Bill of Rights granted us, and are also what the Marxist influenced Democrats would like to strip us of…you know…free speech, free right of assembly, free right of worship and so on.

Marxist flavored Autocracy unfortunately mean Marxist influenced finances, laws, and thuggery, and I cannot but be unalterably opposed to these things. I want power over my life...not power over yours.

It’s my life, my God given rights, and my hard earned money you take from me at your peril. Nope, not greed…I have a good deal of common sense and even the occasional charitable motive. But if I earned while you sat in front of the TV smoking crack, I see no reason to give you what is mine.

That is what personal property rights are about, and Marxism is against.

Now, did you want to say or ask something with more meaning?

[*T*]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

It is one hell of a stretch to call the US Marxist or blame its current situation on Marxism. Most of Europe has genuine socialised healthcare. Would you call the UK, Germany, France, Marxist?

The US doesn't have a radical left. What you define as left is, by international standards, still on the right.

[ricket]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

If the radical Left takes over quickly, I know what I will do.

I think you need to spend a little more time on this site before spewing Fox News talking points.

[ricket]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

　It’s my life, my God given rights, and my hard earned money you take from me at your peril. Nope, not greed…I have a good deal of common sense and even the occasional charitable motive. But if I earned while you sat in front of the TV smoking crack, I see no reason to give you what is mine.

Im sure that all those entities who have loaned us trillions of dollars to buy flat screen TVs and drive 7mpg Hummers would say the same about you. But you work you say? Well, you shouldve thought about that before being a US citizen. Don't like being lumped in the same group with a bunch of losers? Then you shouldnt categorize others as lazy ass crack smoking TV watchers either.

Your attitude is downright ridiculous and these kinds of uninformed statements (and I assume actions) are what is causing so many problems in our country today. Get off your "OMG THE SOCIALISTS ARE COMING" bandwagon, I'm sick and tired of hearing about this shit *now*. What about during the last presidency??

Wow. Just wow is all I can say. I try to keep my mouth shut on most things, but this post was one of the most ridiculous ones I have seen. It's a good thing it got moved to Rant and Rave and the Political Abyss because it sure belongs there.

PS I bet you voted for Palin because she was the greatest thing to ever hit the political landscape since Jesus.

[World Traveler]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

I can understand concerns about the constitution being applied properly and about the future of America. Most thinking Americans do have those concerns today.

But the 99% of Americans who are not financial oligarchs or banking elite need to move beyond the Left/Right, Marxisim/Socialism, Democrat/Republican, and Welfare Queen ideological debates. It is NOT the Poor who are robbing this country blind and getting taxpayer bailouts valued at trillions of dollars, it is the finanacial oligarchs and banking elite who are. The oligarchs are asset-stripping America, not the Food Stamp Program recipients.

The oligarchs pull the most important strings in both political parties, and use Left/Right debates and social issue (like abortion, scholl prayer, etc.) debates to divide and conquor Americans.

They don't care which political party or ideology is running Washinton, as long as they control things behind the scenes and they keep getting richer. They use the media to keep us distracted, examples: Fox News (Rupert Murdoch), CNBC (GE).

We the 99% have much more in common than we have differences. We're slowly getting poorer and we have a political process that is not responsive to our needs. Working together and refusing to believe rhe propaganda that often passes for news, we can reign in that 1%, and refuse to be divided/conquored.

[jtabeb]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

Your RANT is the perfect example of how a country goes FASCIST.

Fascist target the strawman of Marxism to get the population to go along. Always worked that way.

I can categorically state that there is NO RISK of our country descending into a Marxist Autocracy.
( I think FRED would agree, but not on so certain terms)
THERE IS AN EXTREME RISK of a Descent into FASCISM however. And that is the real threat.I include FRED's comments from the select side on my post about "FASCISM is just a Supreme Court Decision Away" so that YOU can judge for yourself, where the threat lies.

(Yes, he was responding to a thread that I posted, so I'm putting the disclaimer in front)


FRED:
"Interesting that Moyers' observation of the power of the Insurance arm of the FIRE Economy media to frame the health care debate is quickly sidetracked even here among the well informed iTulip readership by an argument about right versus left positions on the topic.



While we're arguing about that, as the member who posted this thread points out, the foundations of a corporate fascist state are being built. Once it is completed, will it be right wing fascist or left wing fascist?

Moyers indeed has a left wing background. For the sake of balance, we'd like to see a member of the right who expresses a similar view.

Does a right wing commentator exist, who operates on Moyers' level, with a multi-decade long career and a national audience, who takes a similar anti-Oligarchy position? Curiously, no. Perhaps we have our answer to the question above.

A more constructive endeavor than arguing left versus right on the Labor Day holiday is to come up with a list of 10 Facts You Can't Say in the Corporate Media that Prove it is Controlled. I'll start.

1. To maintain staffing levels, the U.S. military depends on an army of indebted and unemployed citizens.
2. Most laws, but especially drug laws, are selectively enforced by wealth class.
3. Reporters and editors are afraid to report certain facts for fear of retribution--they may be fired and their reputations damaged to the point that they are unemployable in their industry. Several we have talked to quit the field because they could no longer function in an environment where they lived one story away from ending their journalism career.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Fact #1 is interesting because, historically, after a system evolves that selects military personnel by wealth group, the military can be quickly politicized and manipulated as a voting block to meet political ends.

Fact #2 is interesting because, historically, after a system of selective law enforcement is in place, typically selective prosecution based on political affiliation comes next.

Fact #3 is interesting because fear is the life blood of a fascist system. More and more private decisions are based not on opportunity to better one's condition but out of fear of losing one's current place in society. Anyone who can instill fear has power, and anyone who has power can instill fear.

Others? "

By all means, don't take my word for it. But if you dig, you will find that the threat YOU FEAR is the exact OPPOSITE of the one we face.

God Bless and Take care.

V/R

JT

[Slimprofits]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

It is NOT the Poor who are robbing this country blind and getting taxpayer bailouts valued at trillions of dollars....

Yes it is, Marxist. Just how many Che t-shirts do you own? ACORN controls JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. ACORN decides who gets the bailouts and who doesn't. Bawney Fwank!!!! Long Form birth certificate!!!! Hitler spoke to the children too!!!!

The Mainstream Media reports nothing…bought and paid for by the ‘very left’ and their corporate Tarp bailed out friends.

Exactly my patriotic friend. Fox News and Clear Channel Radio are the only grass-roots, from the ground up media entities that are owned and staffed by REAL Americans.

Would you call the UK, Germany, France, Marxist?

You wouldn't? Pass the Freedom Fries.





(exit, stage left...)

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

I think you need to spend a little more time on this site before spewing Fox News talking points.

Speak for yourself, ricket, not for this site.

Some of us here consider Fox, of the major TV networks, to be the least objectionable spew.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

Your RANT is the perfect example of how a country goes FASCIST.

Fascist target the strawman of Marxism to get the population to go along. Always worked that way.

I can categorically state that there is NO RISK of our country descending into a Marxist Autocracy.
( I think FRED would agree, but not on so certain terms)
THERE IS AN EXTREME RISK of a Descent into FASCISM however.

Useful response, jtabeb. Thanks.

The "ism" labels always leave me a bit hesitant. I fear a little too much theorizing can be used to obfuscate essentials.

I tend to look at this a little different (as usual.) It seems to me that we are bombarded by all sorts of scares, pleadings, urgings, distractions, ... that have one common theme. That being to yield up, by ignorance, lassitude, compulsion, fervor, patriotism, or any other means imaginable, some of our personal power and freedom to some other party (not an individual we know personally)

Some of this is good and essential. Humans, ants, bees, sardines, sparrows, wolves and many other beings gather together for their common welfare.

But this essential and deeply engrained propensity is easily corrupted. Each individual is responsible for knowing to whose benefit (cui bono) his common efforts acrue.

Yes, we should help the poor, the infirmed, the weak. Yes, we should oppose fascist oligarchies and marxist autocracies. Yes, we should aid the victims of oppression, genocide, starvation and mass epidemics in far away lands. Yes, we should help the victims of fire, crime, poverty, and violence in our own communities, and oppose the crooks, thieves, arsonists, rapists and vandals.

But always be aware who is the agent claiming our time and money for such good purposes. Do not let anyone agent become too powerful (e.g. the U.S. federal government.) Beware of agents who misrepresent their intentions, usually more for their own benefit than for the purpose they claim or our benefit.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

Your RANT is the perfect example of how a country goes FASCIST.

Fascist target the strawman of Marxism to get the population to go along. Always worked that way.

I can categorically state that there is NO RISK of our country descending into a Marxist Autocracy.
( I think FRED would agree, but not on so certain terms)
THERE IS AN EXTREME RISK of a Descent into FASCISM however.

Useful response, jtabeb. Thanks.

The "ism" labels always leave me a bit hesitant. I fear a little too much theorizing can be used to obfuscate essentials.

I tend to look at this a little different (as usual.) It seems to me that we are bombarded by all sorts of scares, pleadings, urgings, distractions, ... that have one common theme. That being to yield up, by ignorance, lassitude, compulsion, fervor, patriotism, or any other means imaginable, some of our personal power and freedom to some other party (not an individual we know personally)

Some of this is good and essential. Humans, ants, bees, sardines, sparrows, wolves and many other beings gather together for their common welfare.

But this essential and deeply engrained propensity is easily corrupted. Each individual is responsible for knowing to whose benefit (cui bono) his common efforts acrue.

Yes, we should help the poor, the infirmed, the weak. Yes, we should oppose fascist oligarchies and marxist autocracies. Yes, we should aid the victims of oppression, genocide, starvation and mass epidemics in far away lands. Yes, we should help the victims of fire, crime, poverty, and violence in our own communities, and oppose the crooks, thieves, arsonists, rapists and vandals.

But always be aware who is the agent claiming our time and money for such good purposes. Do not let any one agent become too powerful (e.g. the U.S. federal government.) Beware of agents who misrepresent their intentions, usually more for their own benefit than for the purpose they claim or our benefit.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

Your RANT is the perfect example of how a country goes FASCIST.

Fascist target the strawman of Marxism to get the population to go along. Always worked that way.

Fascism, at its heart, is a rejection of egalitarianism. Marxism is a complicated notion, but it is hardly a strawman. It is better identified as progressivism. Whether or not the major political parties aspire to true Marxism is irrelevant - they all hold egalitarian ideals as not merely desirable but inevitable.

In any event, fascism is in and of itself a pejorative term in modern discourse. There are legitimate criticisms of progressive ideals of democracy as the basis of government authority, egalitarianism as statement of fact regarding human nature, and materialism as the primary ethic of governance. Anyone with a critical mind can question the wisdom of the future of mankind being the subject of a popularity contest. It requires little empirical evidence to contradict the notion that humans are inherently equal. The bankrupt cultures of the industrial economies is proof enough that material prosperity does little to bring happiness to the people.

Then, there is the pernicious doctrine of modern banking itself that was very much the target of Fascist ideologues. Put simply, modern banking and compound interest is, in the words of Ezra Pound, against nature. It cannot and will not survive.

All I will say is these questions led to the greatest war in the history of mankind. Oversimplification at this stage is foolish.

[ricket]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

Speak for yourself, ricket, not for this site.

Some of us here consider Fox, of the major TV networks, to be the least objectionable spew.

Except for the ridiculous lying on the very nature of their own company.

They continuously rail against "the mainstream media" when *THEY* are one of the largest media companies in the world (NewsCorp). They have the largest number of viewers who eat up their "fair and balanced" hate-mongering shows and it's leading Americans to become dumber and dumber about what is really going on.

You can do a google search and find many many many contradicting statements from the pundits and idiots on FoxNews who appear woefully under-educated on even the most basic of realities. Their continued support for personalities and politicians who have the most bizarre beliefs infuriates me to no end.

These statements are not to endorse or condone the other actions of other networks, merely to point out that FoxNews is probably at the top of the list when it comes to fallacies in their content.

[jtabeb]

Re: From a (semi) Free Country to a Marxist Autocracy?

Useful response, jtabeb. Thanks.

The "ism" labels always leave me a bit hesitant. I fear a little too much theorizing can be used to obfuscate essentials.

.

"I don't believe in 'ism's', I just believe in me"

John Lennon, quoted by Matthew Broderick in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" (1986).