View Full Version : Town halls turning ugly
flintlock
07-31-09, 07:28 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090731/pl_politico/25646
Screaming constituents, protesters dragged out by the cops, congressmen fearful for their safety — welcome to the new town-hall-style meeting, the once-staid forum that is rapidly turning into a house of horrors for members of Congress.
BigLandbaron
07-31-09, 07:34 AM
The link appears to be broken - or the file was pulled.
the link is a bit broken
In Bishop’s case, his decision came on the heels of a June 22 event he held in Setauket, N.Y., in which protesters dominated the meeting by shouting criticisms at the congressman for his positions on energy policy, health care and the bailout of the auto industry
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090731/pl_politico/25646.
his position sounds reasonable, not like this one
“Twenty-five percent of my people believe the Pentagon and Rumsfeld were responsible for taking the twin towers down,” said Rep. Collin Peterson, a Democrat who represents a conservative Republican district in Minnesota. “That’s why I don’t do town meetings.”
http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/07/did-blue-dog-bash/
seanm123
07-31-09, 07:37 AM
Just in time for their Summer Recess, guess they will all be hiding out if they don't have security.
Don't taze me bro!
Too much democracy...not good ;)
flintlock
07-31-09, 08:38 AM
I think I fixed it.
...this is how some people lobby. sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but these are REAL lives we are talking about ruining. I'm just glad there is still momentum and anger maybe it will carry into election time.
flintlock
07-31-09, 08:41 AM
...this is how some people lobby. sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but these are REAL lives we are talking about ruining. I'm just glad there is still momentum and anger maybe it will carry into election time.
Who you talking to? I love it personally.:D
swgprop
07-31-09, 09:00 AM
Who you talking to? I love it personally.:D
Couldn't agree more, put the fear of God into them, let'em know the natives are restless ... and watching.
Direct relationship between economic prosperity and complacency. And the people ain't prospering.
usually i'm just talking to myself out loud :confused:
Ghent12
07-31-09, 12:25 PM
"I apologize that the majority of the people who care enough to attend your town hall meeting are doing so because they hate you or hate your positions on important issues that affect their lives. I wish this were a simpler time when you didn't have to answer to the berating inquiries of feeble-minded mobs who simply can't understand that their sacrifice is for the greater good. It is, after all, plainly for the greater good; you are greater than them, and it is good for you, hence the greater good. Please continue heroically ignoring their calls for your head as you take from them the things they so selfishly lay claim to, like this antiquated notion of "liberty" and redistribute these things in the Just and Lordly way you see fit."
look out, the old people are pissed too!
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/07/30/state/n184320D61.DTL
metalman
07-31-09, 09:52 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Eq5mWkF5zuo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Eq5mWkF5zuo&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
babbittd
08-04-09, 02:29 AM
From the video that Metalman posted, we find that the organizers of the protest at Rep. Bishop's town-hall meeting was an outfit called the Conservative Society for Action.
On this outfit's website, 100% of the blame for the 2008 Debt Deflation Depression is laid at the feet Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and the Community Reinvestment Act.
What % of the protesters at Rep. Bishop's meeting think that is God's honest truth?
I'm in that economic conservative camp that feels we where abandoned by nearly every Republican leader and voter after 9/11. We're wary of these people because they said nothing, ney, they disagreed with us when we complained about rapidly rising deficits during the credit bubble boom years. Deficits don't matter we were told by them, because that's what they were told by Dick Cheney.
The history of all this has been rewritten in a matter of months. Back in the old days - 2008 - the only people talking about deficits were fringe nuts on economic websites such as this one and the Ron Paul fansites. Nothing was said by the other GOP candidates about it until after they lost the election. Same goes for all of the supporters of the party that I talk to on a regular basis. It was pretty funny listening to the talking points about deficits and bailout packages change and emerge almost instantly in mid-November.
So there is no doubt that all of this stuff is going to carry over into 2010 and 2012. The big question is, do all of these people let the Republicans slide again once they're back at the seat of the controls?
doom&gloom
08-04-09, 02:51 AM
Just in time for their Summer Recess, guess they will all be hiding out if they don't have security.
Don't taze me bro!
why do only children and CONgress get recess?
oh yeah, i fergit -- one in the same...
mesyn191
08-04-09, 11:54 PM
...this is how some people lobby. sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but these are REAL lives we are talking about ruining. I'm just glad there is still momentum and anger maybe it will carry into election time.
Most of the recent town hall stuff is astroturf. No really:
http://i28.tinypic.com/oibz8x.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2py7t74.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2zg4utj.jpg
If they don't get enough people on hand to do that they bus more nutjobs in to harass whoever is speaking. This is even worse than those BS "Tea parties" we saw a little while back.
Who you talking to? I love it personally.:D
If it was for the right reasons maybe I could get behind it too, but most of these people are nutjob birthers, FEMA camp/NWO "activists", and straight up racists. Case in point...
*from the info. section of the linked Youtube video*"This nigga has got to go!"
My that is a lovely video you've got there...
ThePythonicCow
08-05-09, 12:30 AM
Most of the recent town hall stuff is astroturf. No really:
If they don't get enough people on hand to do that they bus more nutjobs in to harass whoever is speaking. This is even worse than those BS "Tea parties" we saw a little while back.
If it was for the right reasons maybe I could get behind it too, but most of these people are nutjob birthers, FEMA camp/NWO "activists", and straight up racists.
One of the ploys of those who would destroy American Freedom is to get us divided against each other.
Let's see here "stuff ... astroturf ... nutjobs ... harass ... BS ... nutjob ... birthers ... NWO activists ... racists ..."
Thank-you for your well thought out, factual and respectful discussion of important issues :rolleyes:.
(In other words, I hope readers of your comment will notice that you were just name calling and pay your remark appropriately little regard.)
santafe2
08-05-09, 12:31 AM
From the video that Metalman posted, we find that the organizers of the protest at Rep. Bishop's town-hall meeting was an outfit called the Conservative Society for Action.
We're headed toward another world war and these fascists will lead the way. They don't yet feel free to set up camps but it's no more than an election or two away if we ignore the threat. Wait until oil is $300 a barrel, the idiots in this video will go Hitler youth on us all.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity - MLK.
mesyn191
08-05-09, 01:41 AM
Thank-you for your well thought out, factual and respectful discussion of important issues :rolleyes:.
Refutation of a statement requires facts, not none to subtle sarcasm.
As for facts....I posted images of leaked documents showing how most of these "angry town hall meetings" are really being set up by "party action committees" instead of actual spontaneous events by locals. That is text book astroturf, aka fake grass roots organizing.
Many of these "angry town hall meetings" have been about Obama's birth certs and such, its not like they're hard to find you know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2AXWTPNHs) so I don't see how you can call that into question. And yes, if you're a birther than you're a nutjob and full of BS, hell even some of the repub's on TV have started to call it nonsense (O'Reilly and Coulter).
As for being racists I c/p'd the relevent quote from one of audrey's links....
(In other words, I hope readers of your comment will notice that you were just name calling and pay your remark appropriately little regard.)
It sure seems those names are accurate so whats the problem?
ThePythonicCow
08-05-09, 02:23 AM
Refutation of a statement requires facts, not none to subtle sarcasm. Yup.
http://i1.iofferphoto.com/img/item/219/511/91/o_Biog.JW.BMP.jpg
Just the facts.
Or do you consider all that name calling "just facts"?
(Never mind .. don't bother responding .. there is no hope for this discussion.)
mesyn191
08-05-09, 02:36 AM
(Never mind .. don't bother responding .. there is no hope for this discussion.)
What discussion? You're at best just talking down to me with sarcastic replies.
Ghent12
08-05-09, 10:36 AM
What discussion? You're at best just talking down to me with sarcastic replies.
Well you didn't bring much to the conversation except to question the ethos and even the definition of "grass roots movements" in this country. If anything, you proved how little value any definition holds.
Let me just see if I understand your position. If any protest is organized in any way by an outside agency, it is AstroTurf and not a genuine grass roots movement? Okay, fair enough; I don't think there have ever been any grass roots movements in the country, in that case.
However, AstroTurf by your definition can still represent the views of the people, just as much as cookie-cutter politicians can from time to time (when they are not stealing).
audrey_girl
08-05-09, 11:25 AM
Most of the recent town hall stuff is astroturf. No really:
http://i28.tinypic.com/oibz8x.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2py7t74.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2zg4utj.jpg
If they don't get enough people on hand to do that they bus more nutjobs in to harass whoever is speaking. This is even worse than those BS "Tea parties" we saw a little while back.
If it was for the right reasons maybe I could get behind it too, but most of these people are nutjob birthers, FEMA camp/NWO "activists", and straight up racists. Case in point...
My that is a lovely video you've got there...
- sorry - i did not see this; I do not believe in ugly crap like that.
I will pull this post. I just saw the fox video here on youtube about senator spector getting heckled at a town meeting and posted the video - did not see this other ugly stuff , I will be more careful with my postings in the future.
- again terribly sorry
apologize to all who are offended
fliped42
08-05-09, 12:39 PM
Refutation of a statement requires facts, not none to subtle sarcasm.
As for facts....I posted images of leaked documents showing how most of these "angry town hall meetings" are really being set up by "party action committees" instead of actual spontaneous events by locals. That is text book astroturf, aka fake grass roots organizing.
Many of these "angry town hall meetings" have been about Obama's birth certs and such, its not like they're hard to find you know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2AXWTPNHs) so I don't see how you can call that into question. And yes, if you're a birther than you're a nutjob and full of BS, hell even some of the repub's on TV have started to call it nonsense (O'Reilly and Coulter).
As for being racists I c/p'd the relevent quote from one of audrey's links....
It sure seems those names are accurate so whats the problem?
Many of these town hall meetings may be organized but so what, that is what you do. If you had no cause people would not show up. People are angry. Below is a town hall meeting. It may have been organized but look at the people inside. Housewives, retired folks, vets. These are real people with real concerns. This is America at work. Have the debate. Demand your representative vote in your local interest. Make them explain their position and defend it. If they cannot then they should think about the ramifications of not listening to the people they are elected to serve. They must hear all sides of the debate. Or do you think only ACORN has the right to protest and make themselves heard?
http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/politics/blog/2009/06/video_bishop_confronts_town_ha.html
Whatever your politics I think these incidents are a sign that as the economy goes to hell things could well disintegrate completely, and any slight vestiges of national cohesion between americans at odds with each other politically could be lost.
And the likes of Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh and other extremist hate-preachers should count themselves at least partly responsible. Has political discourse always been so knuckleheaded in the US ?
babbittd
08-05-09, 02:58 PM
Has political discourse always been so knuckleheaded in the US ?
Would love to hear from Nickerson, EJ, GRG55 and few others on this one.
I tend to think it started to get much worse during the 90s with the proliferation of talk radio, cable television, 24 hours of coverage and eventually the internet.
babbittd
08-05-09, 03:03 PM
Classic Colbert last night.
<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com'>The Colbert Report</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/240727/august-04-2009/merry-barackmas'>Merry Barackmas</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/'>www.colbertnation.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:240727' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/full-episodes'>Colbert Report Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/239942/july-27-2009/current-events---tasers'>Tasers</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
I'm still thinking about and laughing out loud @ The Three Wisemen
seanm123
08-05-09, 03:05 PM
A little brawling now and then could be a good thing for Democracy.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TqvdJSO6Ssc&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TqvdJSO6Ssc&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/when-legislators-attack/
ThePythonicCow
08-05-09, 03:14 PM
Has political discourse always been so knuckleheaded in the US ?Do you mean such as when people label some of the more prominent spokesmen and women for the opposition "extremist hate-preachers"?
Yup. It's been going on a long long time, and not just in the United States either.
ThePythonicCow
08-05-09, 03:27 PM
- sorry - i did not see this; I do not believe in ugly crap like that. I see no need for an apology, audrey_girl. Most good political theater, for whichever side, is organized ahead of time. This is a fine example of that.
Such organization doesn't mean the people doing it are insincere. It does mean we have to remain aware that all powerful interests may, if they can, play upon the sincere concerns of people to promote positions that may or may not be what they appear.
Our inborn tendencies to participate in such theater when we agree, to find such theater disgusting when we disagree, and to be swayed by such theater either way as if it were entirely spontaneous are all tendencies of which we must be reminded now and then.
Classic Colbert last night.
<table style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245);" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="360" height="353"><tbody><tr style="background-color: rgb(229, 229, 229);" valign="middle"><td style="padding: 2px 1px 0px 5px;">The Colbert Report (http://www.colbertnation.com)</td><td style="padding: 2px 5px 0px; text-align: right; font-weight: bold;">Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c</td></tr><tr style="height: 14px;" valign="middle"><td style="padding: 2px 1px 0px 5px;" colspan="2">Merry Barackmas (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/240727/august-04-2009/merry-barackmas)</td></tr><tr style="height: 14px; background-color: rgb(53, 53, 53);" valign="middle"><td colspan="2" style="padding: 2px 5px 0px; overflow: hidden; width: 360px; text-align: right;">www.colbertnation.com (http://www.colbertnation.com/)</td></tr><tr valign="middle"><td style="padding: 0px;" colspan="2"><embed style="display: block;" src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:240727" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="window" allowfullscreen="true" flashvars="autoPlay=false" allowscriptaccess="always" allownetworking="all" bgcolor="#000000" width="360" height="301"></td></tr><tr style="height: 18px;" valign="middle"><td style="padding: 0px;" colspan="2"><table style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" height="100%"><tbody><tr valign="middle"><td style="padding: 3px; width: 33%;">Colbert Report Full Episodes (http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/full-episodes)</td><td style="padding: 3px; width: 33%;">Political Humor (http://www.indecisionforever.com)</td><td style="padding: 3px; width: 33%;">Tasers (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/239942/july-27-2009/current-events---tasers)</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
I'm still thinking about and laughing out loud @ The Three Wisemen
And after Catiline came Caesar.......
flintlock
08-05-09, 04:03 PM
My original post was merely to bring to attention the anger going on in general at congress. Not to pick sides with special interest groups. Personally I'm a fan of the good old "tar and feathering" of days gone by.:D
Unfortunately, the most organized are the special groups like abortion( both sides), birthers, truthers, space aliens, etc. When mainstream Americans try to organized they get called names and lumped in with the nuts. :rolleyes:
So stop hijacking this thread and lumping everyone in with the kooks please.:D
Imagine, Americans having the nerve to, "gasp", protest taxes. Where did they get that idea? Somebody better shut down that crazy way of thinking before things get out of hand.
mesyn191
08-05-09, 04:38 PM
If any protest is organized in any way by an outside agency, it is AstroTurf and not a genuine grass roots movement?
Its more of a who is doing the organizing and under what circumstances. Did you read the paper? Can you not see how they're trying to present a certain image to the speaker/congressmen/media instead of being serious about representing their views? To put it as the paper does, "pack the hall"? Did you go to the link cited at the end of the paper and read up about that site and the man who runs it?
"MacGuffie is a volunteer for FreedomWorks, the industry funded group that helps organize and support the tea party protests. But he denies that his small group has any direct affiliation with FreedomWorks. "We are recommending with that memo that other grassroots groups that share our view should go to the townhalls of their members and use the strategy that we did," MacGuffie told me, confirming the memo's authenticity. "We are trying to get into that town halls to make them understand that they do not have the unanimous support from people in their communities."
If a ACORN party member was going around doing this sort of thing with this buddies what would you say then?
People are angry.
But what if they're angry for the wrong reasons due to misinformation and/or manipulation of facts? Being angry isn't enough, you have to be right too. Hell, the paper clearly states that these "protesters" aren't even using their own questions, they're being handed out to them before they get to the town hall to shout out randomly.
Have the debate.
Debate is good, these people aren't doing that though. They're "packing town halls" to shout slogans and questions that get handed out to them prior to going in, they aren't interested in presenting views only making the congressmen/rep look "dazed and confused" on camera. Its theater. Its disgusting.
Make them explain their position and defend it.
They usually just shout down and boo the rep when he/she actually tries to do this...
Or do you think only ACORN has the right to protest and make themselves heard?
No, and I don't like them either.
For the record I don't view myself as Rep, Dem, or a Libertarian. While all of these parties have some views that I agree with IMO they are all being run by incompetents and/or corrupt stooges right now (have been for a while really) who espouse certain views but don't really appear to believe any of it. Yes, that is a very pessmisitic view point, but given how things are going it doesn't seem to me to be wholly unreasonable to have.
babbittd
08-05-09, 04:40 PM
Just because they're protesting against something that you happen to agree with them on, doesn't mean that most of them would be there if the shoe was on the other foot.
There was no wave of protests over Medicare Part D, the No Child Left Alone Act or the exploding deficits during the Bush/Republican Congress years.
So far after Bush, there has been but one small protest against the war in Afghanistan that paled in size compared to past years when the focus was Iraq and a Republican President.
I think you guys are being a little nieve here...
And do you really think the Republicans in the House are pushing the birther stuff because a few fringe nut supporters forced it on them? Maybe I associate with the wrong people, but regular republicans (successful, normal people with families and jobs) have been warning me about the 'Manchurian Candidate' since early in 2008 at least.
mesyn191
08-05-09, 04:41 PM
apologize to all who are offended
I'm not really offended, just shocked how people can be taken in by this sort of thing so easily and not see what these people are like.
metalman
08-05-09, 05:44 PM
I'm not really offended, just shocked how people can be taken in by this sort of thing so easily and not see what these people are like.
this post and this thread are invaluable for this reason... how many itulipers learned from this? many, i hope.
ThePythonicCow
08-05-09, 06:31 PM
... and not see what these people are like.Yeah - as one of the group you'd likely call "these people" down here in the Bible Belt, you'd dang well better watch out for us. We're Evil! :D.
Even the cows down here have a mean kick and are full of you know what :D.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/10/god_and_america.gif
doom&gloom
08-06-09, 12:24 AM
Most of the recent town hall stuff is astroturf. No really:
http://i28.tinypic.com/oibz8x.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2py7t74.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2zg4utj.jpg
If they don't get enough people on hand to do that they bus more nutjobs in to harass whoever is speaking. This is even worse than those BS "Tea parties" we saw a little while back.
If it was for the right reasons maybe I could get behind it too, but most of these people are nutjob birthers, FEMA camp/NWO "activists", and straight up racists. Case in point...
My that is a lovely video you've got there...
I am personally PROUD of the guy who is doing this organization. For years the left has run this kind of schtick on the right, with "mobs" like ACORN doing the heavy lifting for them -- even bussing in protestors. Now the right adapts the same tactics and -- WHOA! -- you not supposed to do that!
BULLSHIT.
The Obama Administration makes the kleptocracy and fiscal malfeasance of the Bush administration look like a trial run play in kindergarten. Where is the left NOW when $2 TRILLION deficits are accepted while they whined incessantly at the Bush deficits? Where is the left NOW on the war when they WHINED incessantly about it during the Bush years? Where is the left NO when bills get passed without a reading before the vote, yet they WHINED about it when the Patriot Act went thru?
I'll tell ya where they are -- nowhere. Staring in rapture at their dashboard Obama's trying to figure out how to kipe a 'clunkers' deal.
Team O is a meance to this country, and I am not saying it from a partisan view but that of a fiscal conservative. They have lost ALL SEMBLANCE of fiscal discipline and good governance. Obama himself is on tape bitchin' 'bout the way the Republicrats pushed thru legislation too fast, but now it's his show and no one should question the Democans?
BULLSHIT.
Slighly over half the voting population voted for Obama. There was no major mandate here. And I would bet given a re-run today the Big O would lose by a landslide even to that lackluster dunderhead McSame.
Nah, I hope these town hall meetings get even UGLIER. It's time the Pigs from the Animal Farm in DC get a clue that some pigs are NOT more equal than others.
metalman
08-06-09, 12:26 AM
uh oh. political abyss?
doom&gloom
08-06-09, 12:46 AM
MLK is right -- so we got Obama...
ThePythonicCow
08-06-09, 01:52 AM
uh oh. political abyss?
This thread was there a while back. I was just being too wimpy to call it straight.
Good post, doom&gloom. Thanks.
fliped42
08-06-09, 02:00 AM
Its more of a who is doing the organizing and under what circumstances. Did you read the paper? Can you not see how they're trying to present a certain image to the speaker/congressmen/media instead of being serious about representing their views? To put it as the paper does, "pack the hall"? Did you go to the link cited at the end of the paper and read up about that site and the man who runs it?
"MacGuffie is a volunteer for FreedomWorks, the industry funded group that helps organize and support the tea party protests. But he denies that his small group has any direct affiliation with FreedomWorks. "We are recommending with that memo that other grassroots groups that share our view should go to the townhalls of their members and use the strategy that we did," MacGuffie told me, confirming the memo's authenticity. "We are trying to get into that town halls to make them understand that they do not have the unanimous support from people in their communities."
If a ACORN party member was going around doing this sort of thing with this buddies what would you say then?
But what if they're angry for the wrong reasons due to misinformation and/or manipulation of facts? Being angry isn't enough, you have to be right too. Hell, the paper clearly states that these "protesters" aren't even using their own questions, they're being handed out to them before they get to the town hall to shout out randomly.
Debate is good, these people aren't doing that though. They're "packing town halls" to shout slogans and questions that get handed out to them prior to going in, they aren't interested in presenting views only making the congressmen/rep look "dazed and confused" on camera. Its theater. Its disgusting.
They usually just shout down and boo the rep when he/she actually tries to do this...
No, and I don't like them either.
For the record I don't view myself as Rep, Dem, or a Libertarian. While all of these parties have some views that I agree with IMO they are all being run by incompetents and/or corrupt stooges right now (have been for a while really) who espouse certain views but don't really appear to believe any of it. Yes, that is a very pessmisitic view point, but given how things are going it doesn't seem to me to be wholly unreasonable to have.
Do you know what ACORN does?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t-gIafJt0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLOJFD6Wtnk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3BJsYJA0Os
Did you watch the video I posted. Did you see what the voter concerns were. Did you listen to the vets. Or the housewives.
What misinformation. Maybe if you opened your mind you could hear the otherside of the debate.
The people in the video are going to their representatives for answers to the questions out there. The representatives are dumbfounded that people are actually asking questions. They have no answer. The people should vote them out if they do not get the answers they agree with based upon local morals and needs. This is what America is about.
So as a proud american and a registered democrat I am happy that there is a debate. Be as cynical as you want. I believe in debate and the expressing of views as well as the need to listen to other peoples views. If it is organized so be it. If the people do not respond there will be no movement. But do not be so nieve as to think both sides are not doing the exact same thing.
mesyn191
08-06-09, 08:03 AM
Do you know what ACORN does?
What part of "I don't like them" didn't you understand?
Do 2 wrongs make a right?
Maybe if you opened your mind you could hear the otherside of the debate.
Again, there is no debate, only angry shouting and rhetoric. Its like watching Jerry Springer.
But do not be so nieve as to think both sides are not doing the exact same thing.
Just whose posts are you reading anyways? I'm not saying anything like this at all, and if you think I am that is your perception and not my intention.
we_are_toast
08-06-09, 08:07 AM
We're headed toward another world war and these fascists will lead the way. They don't yet feel free to set up camps but it's no more than an election or two away if we ignore the threat. Wait until oil is $300 a barrel, the idiots in this video will go Hitler youth on us all.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity - MLK.
Absolutely right! This is dangerous stuff. This isn't a discussion of ideas, this isn't peaceful demonstration, this is an unthinking mob controlled by people who do not have the best interests of our county in mind, shouting down open discussion.
We are well into the age of "unreason".
Maybe FRED needs to create a new forum, something like, significant political developments. It seems that the success of iTulip's forecasts is it's ability to anticipate a political response to economic conditions. There could be many black swan political events that might alter or support a given forecast. EJ has expressed his concern about the direction that our politics might take, well maybe now is the time to start pointing out the political changes that might lead to government responses with large economic impacts.
mesyn191
08-06-09, 08:17 AM
Now the right adapts the same tactics and -- WHOA! -- you not supposed to do that!
Even so, do 2 wrongs make a right?
snip Obama/Dem rant<snip obama="" dem="" rant="">
Thats nice and all but what has that got to do with what I'm talking about?
There was no major mandate here.
Majority rules is what we've got, for better or for worse, you know it doesn't have to be "major".
And I would bet given a re-run today the Big O would lose by a landslide even to that lackluster dunderhead McSame.
Things aren't nearly bad enough for that to happen yet, give it time though. Personally as bad as Obama is I'd rather have him than Palin/McCain, I'd say we got the best of the worst out of that deal, you should be happy right?
Nah, I hope these town hall meetings get even UGLIER. It's time the Pigs from the Animal Farm in DC get a clue that some pigs are NOT more equal than others.
Unfortunately yelling at them (or even throwing things at them, heck even beating them to within an inch of their lives...) won't accomplish anything, you're assuming they don't already know what they're doing is wrong and/or that they actually care. We're going to have to vote them out and replace them with people who just want to do the job the right way and not from a ideological viewpoint. I don't see that happening any time soon. Certainly not with this Jerry Springer approach to political discourse.</snip>
Do you know what ACORN does?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t-gIafJt0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLOJFD6Wtnk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3BJsYJA0Os
Did you watch the video I posted. Did you see what the voter concerns were. Did you listen to the vets. Or the housewives.
What misinformation. Maybe if you opened your mind you could hear the otherside of the debate.
The people in the video are going to their representatives for answers to the questions out there. The representatives are dumbfounded that people are actually asking questions. They have no answer. The people should vote them out if they do not get the answers they agree with based upon local morals and needs. This is what America is about.
So as a proud american and a registered democrat I am happy that there is a debate. Be as cynical as you want. I believe in debate and the expressing of views as well as the need to listen to other peoples views. If it is organized so be it. If the people do not respond there will be no movement. But do not be so nieve as to think both sides are not doing the exact same thing.
There is a difference between asking tough questions and trying to disrupt the meeting by interrupting the speaker and appearing unruly. I suppose they could go the W. route and only allow party loyalists into the town halls (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/denv-a02.shtml). Yay democracy.
fliped42
08-06-09, 08:58 AM
There is a difference between asking tough questions and trying to disrupt the meeting by interrupting the speaker and appearing unruly. I suppose they could go the W. route and only allow party loyalists into the town halls (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/denv-a02.shtml). Yay democracy.
I don't disagree with you and on a lot of the videos I have seen people are asking questions and voicing their opinions. You are going to get rablerousers in any crowd both conservative and liberal. But to lump all the people into Birthers and paid hacks I think is wrong. And yes it is better then what Bush did.
fliped42
08-06-09, 09:11 AM
"MacGuffie is a volunteer for FreedomWorks, the industry funded group that helps organize and support the tea party protests. But he denies that his small group has any direct affiliation with FreedomWorks. "We are recommending with that memo that other grassroots groups that share our view should go to the townhalls of their members and use the strategy that we did," MacGuffie told me, confirming the memo's authenticity. "We are trying to get into that town halls to make them understand that they do not have the unanimous support from people in their communities."
If a ACORN party member was going around doing this sort of thing with this buddies what would you say then?
I posted my response about ACORN based upon the above quote. The videos I posted show Acorn doing exactly what this person MacGuffie said. Except they do not right letters they hold large meeting to train their protesters. Yes two wrongs do not make a right but how else do you organize politically. A lot of people just buy that everyone at these town halls are trouble makers and political hacks. And sure you have thoses people but it is not 20% of the crowd. And the spin is that anyone who asks a tough question must be a political hack a neo nazi or a birther. I just do not think it is true.
flintlock
08-06-09, 11:35 AM
There is a difference between asking tough questions and trying to disrupt the meeting by interrupting the speaker and appearing unruly. I suppose they could go the W. route and only allow party loyalists into the town halls (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/denv-a02.shtml). Yay democracy.
Agree.
One thing I have noticed in American politics lately. There seems to be the idea that if someone is arguing a point you don't agree with, that they should be shut up. As if there is a fear that merely vocalizing a thought somehow magically makes it valid. If people are idiots so what? What is to fear by letting them open their mouths and show the world what idiots they are?
I hate the shouters too, but sometimes that's what it takes be heard.
mesyn191
08-06-09, 04:46 PM
And the spin is that anyone who asks a tough question must be a political hack a neo nazi or a birther. I just do not think it is true.
Its not the questions that they're asking but the manner and intent with which they do so. These people aren't genuinely interested in having their questions answered, if they don't hear what they like they just shout down and boo the speaker/congressman. They are not interested in discourse, they're there to present a image to the rep./media, they're posers.
IOW I have no problem with reps/speakers being asked tough questions, nor do I believe that automatically makes the asker a neo-nazi/birther. That is your perception and not my intention if that is what you got out of what I said. I'm saying most if not all the people using these PR tactics right now are birthers, nutjobs, and yes even racists. Its faux grass roots, done by the very same people who did the Tea Parties, its the Jerry Springer version of political action.
If you like the shadenfruede you get when you watch some of these reps/congressman get shouted down, I have no problem with that, just bear in mind its all being done for the wrong reasons.
A First Hand View of a Raucous Town Hall Meeting
August 05, 2009 4:51 PM
ABC’s Steven Portnoy reports:
There were no lobbyist-funded buses in the parking lot of Mardela Middle and High School on Tuesday evening, and the hundreds of Eastern Maryland residents who packed the school’s auditorium loudly refuted the notion that their anger over the Democrats’ health care reform plans is “manufactured.”
“I went to school in this school,” a man named Bob told me. “I don't see anyone in this room that isn't from Mardela Springs right now.”
“We’ve been quiet too long,” said a woman named Joan.
They came to yell at their congressman, freshman Democratic Rep. Frank Kratovil, and they were surprised to hear that the “Congress in Your Corner” event to which they had been invited -- by a robocall from Kratovil himself -- was not to be a public airing of grievances, but instead an opportunity for private, one-on-one sessions with the freshman Democrat.
..
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/a-first-hand-view-of-a-raucous-town-hall-meeting.html
Why is the MSM shoveling their stuff into blogs?
This is what you get when you have an angry, racist, hateful minority riled up and choreographed by some combination of corporate patrons, K-street lobbyists and the official media outlet of the Republican Party.
They do what they're told and believe everything they hear. Given the difficulty many of these folks have with reality this will end very badly.
This isn't 'protest' it's thuggery.
As a columnist who regularly dishes out sharp criticism, I try not to question the motives of people with whom I don't agree. Today, I'm going to step over that line.
The recent attacks by Republican leaders and their ideological fellow-travelers on the effort to reform the health-care system have been so misleading, so disingenuous, that they could only spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage. By poisoning the political well, they've given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition. They've become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems.
This is what you get when you have an angry, racist, hateful minority riled up and choreographed by some combination of corporate patrons, K-street lobbyists and the official media outlet of the Republican Party.
They do what they're told and believe everything they hear. Given the difficulty many of these folks have with reality this will end very badly.
This isn't 'protest' it's thuggery.
After this, definitely move to Rant & Rave.
Rantly McTirade
08-07-09, 11:39 AM
This is what you get when you have an angry, racist, hateful minority riled up and choreographed by some combination of corporate patrons, K-street lobbyists and the official media outlet of the Republican Party.
They do what they're told and believe everything they hear. Given the difficulty many of these folks have with reality this will end very badly.
This isn't 'protest' it's thuggery.
'Wacist'? No corporate patron, flack, or poobah would be anywhere near anything that wouldn't pass muster with the NAACP, La Raza,any crapversity consultant, etc., so you're clearly confused on your conspiracies.
Unless you mean Al Sharpton and Jeremiah Wright? Doubtful.
Right on schedule. (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/anti-health-care-reform-protester-encourages-physical-violence-use-of-firearms.php?ref=fpblg)
These are authoritarian cultists who cannot cope with the world as it exists, or the fact that a black man is President, or both. They are being incited to stamp out democratic debate and, now, to violence.
I say it again - this will end very badly.
BigBagel
08-07-09, 03:01 PM
Agree.
One thing I have noticed in American politics lately. There seems to be the idea that if someone is arguing a point you don't agree with, that they should be shut up. As if there is a fear that merely vocalizing a thought somehow magically makes it valid. If people are idiots so what? What is to fear by letting them open their mouths and show the world what idiots they are?
I hate the shouters too, but sometimes that's what it takes be heard.
What we're witnessing is American politics is being brought down to the level of talk radio or one of those screaming political discussion shows on cable. All smoke and no fire.
flintlock
08-07-09, 03:06 PM
After seeing more stuff on the news about these "town halls", I have to agree that they are becoming less than useful. A bunch of senior citizens shouting down each other is mostly what I saw. Not much real discussion there. They should organize a march or something if they want to protest. Of course no AC and scooter batteries run out after a few miles. :D
TAMPA, Fla. -- A town hall meeting to discuss President Barack Obama's health care reform plan turned into a heated confrontation after more than a thousand people showed up in Tampa to voice their opinion.
Opponents shouted "Read the bill!" and held up signs as U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor attempted to address the crowd Thursday. There were reports of shoving and one man had his shirt ripped as a volunteer attempted to close a meeting room door. No one was arrested.
The Tampa chapter of the activist 9-12 Project says it encouraged members to show up and ask questions. The group was developed by Fox News Channel commentator Glenn Beck.
Police say an estimated 1,500 attended. Many had to stand in the hallway or outside the room.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/story/1175951.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/story/1175951.html)
There has been some comparison to Acorn in response to the original. Which TV network are they affiliated with in this way?
abexman
08-07-09, 03:25 PM
Unfortunately yelling at them (or even throwing things at them, heck even beating them to within an inch of their lives...) won't accomplish anything, you're assuming they don't already know what they're doing is wrong and/or that they actually care. We're going to have to vote them out and replace them with people who just want to do the job the right way and not from a ideological viewpoint. I don't see that happening any time soon. Certainly not with this Jerry Springer approach to political discourse.
I think people are reacting to their "representatives" not listening to them. Obviously it is often an emotional reaction. So good if the people stop listening to their "representatives" answers. More than one of these "representatives" has completely ignored their constituents opinions and without reading legislation - given it their vote.
Our "representatives" could learn a thing or two from these crowds! If they got into some more fistacuffs around Capitol Hill perhaps they wouldn't be able to easily keep passing the piles of sh*t they call legislation. Maybe now they will at least think twice, that would be progress.
Ghent12
08-07-09, 04:26 PM
I think people are reacting to their "representatives" not listening to them. Obviously it is often an emotional reaction. So good if the people stop listening to their "representatives" answers. More than one of these "representatives" has completely ignored their constituents opinions and without reading legislation - given it their vote.
Our "representatives" could learn a thing or two from these crowds! If they got into some more fistacuffs around Capitol Hill perhaps they wouldn't be able to easily keep passing the piles of sh*t they call legislation. Maybe now they will at least think twice, that would be progress.I remember reading of physical attacks during heated arguments in the various legislatures of the 19th Century. I think what we have now is actually a step backwards--less intelligent, less passionate, just raw corruption it seems.
"We're headed toward another world war and these fascists will lead the way. They don't yet feel free to set up camps but it's no more than an election or two away if we ignore the threat. Wait until oil is $300 a barrel, the idiots in this video will go Hitler youth on us all."
Many of these people are objecting to the "hush it, rush it" fascism of the Democratic leadership in the House, even if their fears are corralled by political groups on the Right.
If you fear the "Hitler Youth" of the future, what about the "Young Pioneers" (Neo-Stalinists) of the present: ACORN ?
From the video that Metalman posted, we find that the organizers of the protest at Rep. Bishop's town-hall meeting was an outfit called the Conservative Society for Action.
On this outfit's website, 100% of the blame for the 2008 Debt Deflation Depression is laid at the feet Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and the Community Reinvestment Act.
What % of the protesters at Rep. Bishop's meeting think that is God's honest truth?
I'm in that economic conservative camp that feels we where abandoned by nearly every Republican leader and voter after 9/11. We're wary of these people because they said nothing, ney, they disagreed with us when we complained about rapidly rising deficits during the credit bubble boom years. Deficits don't matter we were told by them, because that's what they were told by Dick Cheney.
The history of all this has been rewritten in a matter of months. Back in the old days - 2008 - the only people talking about deficits were fringe nuts on economic websites such as this one and the Ron Paul fansites. Nothing was said by the other GOP candidates about it until after they lost the election. Same goes for all of the supporters of the party that I talk to on a regular basis. It was pretty funny listening to the talking points about deficits and bailout packages change and emerge almost instantly in mid-November.
So there is no doubt that all of this stuff is going to carry over into 2010 and 2012. The big question is, do all of these people let the Republicans slide again once they're back at the seat of the controls?
Thank you for pointing out this "inconvenient truth" about the useless Republicans of 1998 -2008: George W. Bush, Trent Lott, Denny Hastert and company. The reason we've been handed over to these fascists of the Left is because these NeoCon phonies sold out almost every conservative principle that they supposedly spent the past forty years campaigning on. (It does anger me though that the media never seems to hold Demonrats like Barney Frank accountable.)
A few of my friends were really irritated when I pointed all this out to them beginning in 2002, and now that my prophesy of disaster has come true they avoid talking to me.
I wouldn't waste a mouthful of warm spit on the present NeoCon dominated Republican Party.:mad:
Right on schedule. (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/anti-health-care-reform-protester-encourages-physical-violence-use-of-firearms.php?ref=fpblg)
These are authoritarian cultists who cannot cope with the world as it exists, or the fact that a black man is President, or both. They are being incited to stamp out democratic debate and, now, to violence.
I say it again - this will end very badly.
So everyone who disagrees with the fascist rush to socialism of the auto industry, along with the banking, insurance and medical industries, and the enshrining of "Green" as an altar upon which any revival of American manufacturing must be sacrificed is a racist? None of us can oppose Obama, Waxman, Boxer and Frank on principle, so we're all a bunch of racists??
Pardon my French, but your post is bull-thuggery of the highest order.:mad::mad::mad:
ThePythonicCow
08-08-09, 03:28 PM
So everyone who disagrees with the fascist rush to socialism of the auto industry, along with the banking, insurance and medical industries, and the enshrining of "Green" as an altar upon which any revival of American manufacturing must be sacrificed is a racist? None of us can oppose Obama, Waxman, Boxer and Frank on principle, so we're all a bunch of racists??
Pardon my French, but your post is bull-thuggery of the highest order.:mad::mad::mad:
I honestly think you might be a bit too restrained in this criticism.
nitroglycol
08-08-09, 04:22 PM
So everyone who disagrees with the fascist rush to socialism of the auto industry, along with the banking, insurance and medical industries, and the enshrining of "Green" as an altar upon which any revival of American manufacturing must be sacrificed is a racist? None of us can oppose Obama, Waxman, Boxer and Frank on principle, so we're all a bunch of racists??
No, not everyone who disagrees with these policies are racists or fascists. However, did you follow the link posted by WDCRob in that post?
Based on the news that health care events are edging into violence, an anti-health care reform protester in New Mexico named Scott Oskay (http://twitter.com/ScottEO) is calling on his hundreds of online followers to bring firearms to town halls, and to 'badly hurt' SEIU and ACORN counter protesters.That goes far beyond "disagreement", don't you think?
Jim Nickerson
08-08-09, 04:59 PM
I wonder how many people, including those here, have actually read the proposals put forth by Obama (and whoever are his law-writers), which I understand is over 1000 pages long.
I haven't, and I suspect most of the people who might vote on it haven't.
If some sort of change is actually voted into law that does not nationalize the entire system, whatever it does will in effect be pissing into the oncoming wind. Pissing into the wind is utterly useless unless your pants' leg is on fire.
babbittd
08-08-09, 05:40 PM
If some sort of change is actually voted into law that does not nationalize the entire system
Even if you're technically correct and I don't claim to know if you are or not, I do know that such a thing is politically impossible in this country at this time.
I give phony conservatives and Republican party rumpswabs a hard time about Medicare part D (and hypocrisy), but even that probably wouldn't have passed if the GOP leadership hadn't gotten away with lying at the time about how much it would cost in the future.
No, not everyone who disagrees with these policies are racists or fascists. However, did you follow the link posted by WDCRob in that post?
That goes far beyond "disagreement", don't you think?
Perhaps you missed the story about five SEIU thugs assaulting a demonstrator in St. Louis who opposed the Democratic rush to pass this reform bill? Seems to me that the violence started with the Left.
Maybe not, but pointing out one nitwit doesn't discredit all those who show up to ask their congressman or senator if they've actually read the bill. And to scream bloody murder if they haven't !
http://www.lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2009-08-07-RTMUZ.jpg
Perhaps you missed the story about five SWILU thugs assaulting a demonstrator in St. Louis who opposed the Democratic rush to pass this reform bill? Seems to me that the violence started with the Left.
Maybe not, but pointing out one nitwit doesn't discredit all those who show up to ask their congressman or senator if they've actually read the bill. And to scream bloody murder if they haven't !
If this gets worse, and the violence becomes SOP no one will remember or care who started it. I shouldn't have quoted you Raz. I apoligize.
If this gets worse, and the violence becomes SOP no one will remember or care who started it. I shouldn't have quoted you Raz. I apoligize.
Where did you quote me, cjppjc? Even if you did you don't need to apologize.
I can take a lot of abuse - except for this "rascist" crap. WDCRob says that these "right wing nuts" want to shut down debate. If so, they learned it from the Left - the "Free Speech" crowd who took over Berkely back in the 60s, and spawned a plethora of Leftist Lovelies like Bill Ayers, Jane Fonda, Ward Churchill, Tom Hayden, etc. They called everyone who disagreed with them "racists" and "fascists". And playing the "racist" card is the specialty of the American Left. It is used to shut down debate by instantly discrediting your opponent. WDCRob apparently doesn't see the irony in his claim.
If there is going to be a civil war in this country there will be plenty of blame to go around, but I know dozens of people who are so tired of this "racism" charge that they are about ready to explode.
Perhaps you missed the story about five SWILU thugs assaulting a demonstrator in St. Louis who opposed the Democratic rush to pass this reform bill? Seems to me that the violence started with the Left.
Maybe not, but pointing out one nitwit doesn't discredit all those who show up to ask their congressman or senator if they've actually read the bill. And to scream bloody murder if they haven't !
http://www.lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2009-08-07-RTMUZ.jpg
You meant to say SEIU, does anybody know who has their fingers in there ?
You meant to say SEIU, does anybody know who has their fingers in there ?
Thanks, for the info, D-Mack. I just made the correction. :o
(Man I'm tired; my wife is a near-term invalid after her surgery and I'm keeping house, serving as a vet technician for five dogs, an orderly and Candy Striper to my wife/patient, and I'm not getting any younger!)
Whatever your politics I think these incidents are a sign that as the economy goes to hell things could well disintegrate completely, and any slight vestiges of national cohesion between americans at odds with each other politically could be lost.
And the likes of Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh and other extremist hate-preachers should count themselves at least partly responsible. Has political discourse always been so knuckleheaded in the US ?
Aren't you leaving out quite a few other names? Like Stuart Smalley (Al Franken), Keith Olbermann, Janeane Garofalo, Julianne Malveaux, Alec Baldwin ("We should drag Henry Hyde out into the street and stone him to death!") and Jeremiah Wright.
Imagine, Americans having the nerve to, "gasp", protest taxes. Where did they get that idea? Somebody better shut down that crazy way of thinking before things get out of hand.
Personally I'd like to see the people figure out what they want and be willing to pay for it. Right now it's just "Gimme Gimme Gimme" and whine when the bill comes due.
Many of these people are objecting to the "hush it, rush it" fascism of the Democratic leadership in the House, even if their fears are corralled by political groups on the Right.I don't remember these people objecting to the "hush it, rush it, shut down the opposition" activities of the Bush White House. Do you? Heck, I would have loved to have heard or seen something like this going on then.
Acorn's just a bunch of PO'd people. The Right Wingers are better organized, have guns on their side and know how to shoot. When oil jumps, the repression comes.
doom&gloom
08-09-09, 02:48 AM
The Reps don't CARE what their constituents have to say. WE are a nuisance.
They only care about who gives them the most money. We have the best
government money can buy, only "We the people" cannot afford to buy into
the game.
I USED to be a Republican. No more. I have NO party. I am a fiscal
conservative and socially moderate-liberal. NO one represents me.
But I will say that I will support ANYONE who spends less, and stand up
against ANYONE who wants to vote on legislation that will affect some
18% of the US economy without having a clue whats in the bill. If these
ashwipes can find time to take taxpayer junkets to Australia to "check out"
global warming on MY dime, they damn well better do the job we pay them
to do.
I am proud of the DEMOCRAT who called Steny Hoyer a liar to his face. Wish
it had been me. I am tired of watching my country screwed over by people
who claim to represent us but only represent the biggest doners -- BOTH
parties.
Nah, I hope these protests continue. People are pissed. They WANTED
"change" and they GOT "same ol' same ol'" and the Beltway Crowd has yet
to figure the latter is no longer SOP Those days are GONE.
So you whining Obotomists out there get a clue -- this is NOT only about
the Right going after Obama, though I am sure you wish it were. It is about
people looking at the malfeasance of the Bush years and seeing a REPEAT
under Obama (on steroids no less) and they are DONE with it. So stop
praying to your dashboard Obama's and figure out the movement is towards
HONEST government. Sorry it had to happen under YOUR "guy", but like the
Vietnam War protests changed this country, i fully expect the Tea Baggers
and Healthcare Protestors are gonna change things just as much.
flintlock
08-09-09, 05:33 AM
Personally I'd like to see the people figure out what they want and be willing to pay for it. Right now it's just "Gimme Gimme Gimme" and whine when the bill comes due.
Very true.
I find a lot of folks who consider themselves "fiscal conservatives" are in the front lines demanding " keep your hands off our medicare" , and want the finest in highways and other public works.
flintlock
08-09-09, 05:37 AM
Aren't you leaving out quite a few other names? Like Stuart Smalley (Al Franken), Keith Olbermann, Janeane Garofalo, Julianne Malveaux, Alec Baldwin ("We should drag Henry Hyde out into the street and stone him to death!") and Jeremiah Wright.
Oh come on Raz, don't you know that only conservatives are capable of "hate speech"!:D
nitroglycol
08-09-09, 06:52 AM
Perhaps you missed the story about five SEIU thugs assaulting a demonstrator in St. Louis who opposed the Democratic rush to pass this reform bill? Seems to me that the violence started with the Left.
Yeah, I did miss it. Is it linked above?
Update: I think I found a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3aTQt1XEWY) to what you're talking about... kind of ambiguous though. This article (http://mediamatters.org/blog/200908080004) is certainly skeptical. That said, I wouldn't be particularly surprised to see some violence on both sides.
I don't remember these people objecting to the "hush it, rush it, shut down the opposition" activities of the Bush White House. Do you? Heck, I would have loved to have heard or seen something like this going on then.
Acorn's just a bunch of PO'd people. The Right Wingers are better organized, have guns on their side and know how to shoot. When oil jumps, the repression comes.
I didn't vote for George W. Bush, but I don't recall the "hush it, rush it, shut down the opposition activities" of the Bush White House. Could you refresh my memory?
ACORN is a criminal organization that engages in fraudulent voter "registration". If "right wingers" were better organized they wouldn't have allowed the Republican Party to become "Democrat Light".
And the Left is also heavily armed with their own militias: they're called gangs.
Yeah, I did miss it. Is it linked above?
Update: I think I found a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3aTQt1XEWY) to what you're talking about... kind of ambiguous though. This article (http://mediamatters.org/blog/200908080004) is certainly skeptical. That said, I wouldn't be particularly surprised to see some violence on both sides.
I'm not surprised the article is skeptical.
If MediaMatters told me our planet was a sphere I would consider joining the Flat Earth Society.
Raz, if you'd like me to post many dozens of blatantly racist posters, photos, quotes and etc from the Tea Baggers, Birthers and Deathers you just let me know. They aren't hard to find - you could use Teh Google yourself if you like.
And I'm sure I'd have hated the Berkley crowd as much had I been alive to see it. Just about the only people on the planet I want to punch as a reflexive action are the Trust Fund Stoners.
I also don't object to protest. I do object to death threats to Congressmen and calls to violence to shut down the debate.
To be clear... you don't have to look any further than the 9/11 whackjobs to find loons on the left, but when an entire party, including its brightest stars and entire official establishment, has come so unmoored from sanity and reality that its most recent Vice Presidential candidate is saying stark raving mad things as...
The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
...I see no reason to take that party seriously, or to even pretend that good faith negotiation is possible. They can only be opposed and defeated.
metalman
08-09-09, 05:04 PM
Raz, if you'd like me to post many dozens of blatantly racist posters, photos, quotes and etc from the Tea Baggers, Birthers and Deathers you just let me know. They aren't hard to find - you could use Teh Google yourself if you like.
And I'm sure I'd have hated the Berkley crowd as much had I been alive to see it. Just about the only people on the planet I want to punch as a reflexive action are the Trust Fund Stoners.
I also don't object to protest. I do object to death threats to Congressmen and calls to violence to shut down the debate.
To be clear... you don't have to look any further than the 9/11 whackjobs to find loons on the left, but when an entire party, including its brightest stars and entire official establishment, has come so unmoored from sanity and reality that its most recent Vice Presidential candidate is saying stark raving mad things as...
...I see no reason to take that party seriously, or to even pretend that good faith negotiation is possible. They can only be opposed and defeated.
agree with you... now pls fred move to political abyss before a mild mannered passerby gets the idea we're the internet equivalent of fight club.
bcassill
08-09-09, 05:44 PM
You know, after seeing some of the videos on this, I swear that half of the "angry" crowd are senior citizens. No offense to the retired crowd here, but that just makes me want to go to one of these functions and scream at the top of my lungs about how I'm not going to stand and let my country go down the socialist path with government run health care. In fact, we need to get rid of two of the biggest welfare programs in existence: Social Security and Medicare. Then I'd probably go on to say something along the lines of how I'm tired of supporting a bunch of whining blue hairs with government hand outs. I want my tax dollars back! Do you hear me!;):p;)
I'm willing to bet that the silence would be deafening.:p This just goes to show how stupid this charade has become. Health care is broken whether you believe in a government run option or not. What we need is a real debate about this, not a bunch of stooges showing up to yell and shout at the instigation of Limbaugh and Hannity. As a conservative, I'll say that if you've got something constructive to add to the conversation, then by all means show up and participate. Otherwise, shut up and stay home.:D
metalman
08-09-09, 05:50 PM
You know, after seeing some of the videos on this, I swear that half of the "angry" crowd are senior citizens. No offense to the retired crowd here, but that just makes me want to go to one of these functions and scream at the top of my lungs about how I'm not going to stand and let my country go down the socialist path with government run health care. In fact, we need to get rid of two of the biggest welfare programs in existence: Social Security and Medicare. Then I'd probably go on to say something along the lines of how I'm tired of supporting a bunch of whining blue hairs with government hand outs. I want my tax dollars back! Do you hear me!:mad:
I'm willing to bet that the silence would be deafening.:p This just goes to show how stupid this charade has become. Health care is broken whether you believe in a government run option or not. What we need is a real debate about this, not a bunch of stooges showing up to yell and shout at the instigation of Limbaugh and Hannity. As a conservative, I'll say that if you've got something constructive to add to the conversation, then by all means show up and participate. Otherwise, shut up and stay home.:D
http://imgur.com/O2xNZ.jpg
ThePythonicCow
08-09-09, 06:04 PM
As a conservative, I'll say that if you've got something constructive to add to the conversation, then by all means show up and participate. Otherwise, shut up and stay home.:DIs this just conservatives who should only speak up if bcassill considers their comments constructive, or should liberals obey the same constraints :rolleyes:?
In other words, sir, your evaluation of whether what I say is constructive or not does not control my right to say it.
Raz, if you'd like me to post many dozens of blatantly racist posters, photos, quotes and etc from the Tea Baggers, Birthers and Deathers you just let me know. They aren't hard to find - you could use Teh Google yourself if you like.
And I'm sure I'd have hated the Berkley crowd as much had I been alive to see it. Just about the only people on the planet I want to punch as a reflexive action are the Trust Fund Stoners.
I also don't object to protest. I do object to death threats to Congressmen and calls to violence to shut down the debate.
To be clear... you don't have to look any further than the 9/11 whackjobs to find loons on the left, but when an entire party, including its brightest stars and entire official establishment, has come so unmoored from sanity and reality that its most recent Vice Presidential candidate is saying stark raving mad things as...
...I see no reason to take that party seriously, or to even pretend that good faith negotiation is possible. They can only be opposed and defeated.
I agree with most of what you just said, so I'm not looking for a fight, WDC. With that preface outfront where it belongs, I will now state my agreement with Sarah Palin. (Heavens! Did I really say that?)
President Obama has no problem with infanticide. Not just procured abortion, but infanticide. To me, (and I'm entitled to my opinion - at least at the present time), he is a moral reprobate. I don't want anyone of his world view making any "health" decisions for me. Period.
The Left can talk about the poor, global warming, health care as a "right", Halliburton & Cheney, and a hundred other things, but as long as they hold to this manifest evil in the mass murder of the most innocent and helpless of all Americans, as a core idealogical position, no less, then I have little regard for their opinions in other areas. I'm not opposed to health care reform per se, and I'm certainly no friend of the insurance industry. But when it comes to the rationing of care according to the guidelines laid out by the likes of Obama, then to loosly quote you, "I won't even pretend that good-faith negotiation is possible, but I see them only as a force to be opposed and defeated".
I don't believe Palin should be Vice-President, much less President. But I share her fears about life and death decisions concerning medical care coming from the people placed in positions of authority by this president.
And I take no comfort in the possibility that their successors in those positions might be appointed by Republicans - they haven't shown themselves trustworthy either.
About fifteen years ago Joseph Sobran said that "...most of the people who work for the United States government would be willing to work for any government. Had they worked for the Vichy French they would have dutifully helped the Germans round up the Jews, and had they worked for the Romans they would have politely walked in step down to the colliseum to watch the Christians be thrown to the lions".
I believe that Sobran was a perceptive observer not only of history, but of fallen human nature as well. And I not only agree with him, but I believe the moral and social climate of today is worse than when he wrote those words.
Too much name calling and other non-iTulip like behavior.
bcassill
08-09-09, 07:11 PM
Is this just conservatives who should only speak up if bcassill considers their comments constructive, or should liberals obey the same constraints :rolleyes:?
In other words, sir, your evaluation of whether what I say is constructive or not does not control my right to say it.
No, all opinions are welcome. Just make the dialogue constructive, whatever your political affiliation. Shouting each other down is not in good form if you truly intend on finding common ground.
bcassill
08-09-09, 07:16 PM
http://imgur.com/O2xNZ.jpg
My apologies if I came across a little strong. It's just that if you really mean to fix a problem you really need to be grown up about and debate the pros and cons. Don't grand stand. Don't shout down your opponent. There are just better ways to handle this. Not to be misconstrued, I'm just being a little sarcastic with my opening.
a warren
08-09-09, 07:18 PM
Maybe USA citizens should be banned from posting?
ThePythonicCow
08-09-09, 07:26 PM
No, all opinions are welcome. Just make the dialogue constructive, whatever your political affiliation. Shouting each other down is not in good form if you truly intend on finding common ground.Shifting gears are we now?
When I object to your assuming the right to decide whether I can speak, you lapse to just offering fatherly advice on how I might best speak constructively.
Sorry, no dice. You still don't get to determine if I can speak.
ThePythonicCow
08-09-09, 07:46 PM
Maybe USA citizens should be banned from posting?
I take it good sir (good sheep?) that you're from New Zealand?
I also take it you are observing that us Americans are being a tad bit more rude on this thread than others?
Probably so. Perhaps this is an example of power corrupting. Americans have ruled the roost for about a century now, depending on how you count. We're getting a tad big for our britches, if I do say so. Most politicians (except of course which ever one I favor at the moment :rolleyes:) are corrupt lying thieves. Political discourse has become vulgar.
This might be ok, however. Perhaps it's like a bottom in the market, in this case a bottom in political morality. Just when things look darkest, they slowly start climbing back up, in fits and starts.
Or sometimes one calls it wrong, and the bottom is nowhere yet in sight.
babbittd
08-09-09, 10:46 PM
'Wacist'? No corporate patron, flack, or poobah would be anywhere near anything that wouldn't pass muster with the NAACP, La Raza,any crapversity consultant, etc., so you're clearly confused on your conspiracies.
Unless you mean Al Sharpton and Jeremiah Wright? Doubtful.
precisely why three large corporations moved their advertisements on the Fox News channel off of the Glenn Beck show
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/fnc/glenn_becks_racist_comment_sends_advertisers_elsew here_123710.asp?c=rss
babbittd
08-09-09, 10:57 PM
I didn't vote for George W. Bush, but I don't recall the "hush it, rush it, shut down the opposition activities" of the Bush White House. Could you refresh my memory?
After 9/11 Americans were warned by President Bush, his spokesman Ari Fleischer, AG Ashcroft and SoD Rumsfeld to watch what they say and self described "Patriots" across the country took that as a cue to call out anyone with a few unanswered questions about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan as traitors, commies, etc.
babbittd
08-09-09, 11:16 PM
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re: the SEIU fight
This video begins midway through the fight, but it does begin with a man in an SEIU shirt on the ground getting kicked.
Another guy sort of flies in from the right to join in on the action and is pulled down by a different guy in an SEIU shirt before quickly getting back up again.
And I think the one that was pulled down is the one was allegedly beaten by 5 SEIU members (Gladley).
Impossible to tell who attacked first from this video or if fighting words were issued.
is there video evidence that shows 5 SEIU members beating this guy up that I haven't seen?
One of the witnesses is shouting at one of SEIU members and about two of them beating the guy that has received attention from the MSM (Gladley) and he responds by saying that Gladley attacked someone else first. A minister? It's inaudible.
After 9/11 Americans were warned by President Bush, his spokesman Ari Fleischer, AG Ashcroft and SoD Rumself to watch what they say and self described "Patriots" across the country took that as a cue to call out anyone with a few unanswered questions about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan as traitors, commies, etc.
Okay. Immediately after 9/11 we didn't know when or where the next attack would take place. For all we knew it could have been nuclear. Slightly different setting than today, wouldn't you agree?
Do you know of anyone who was harrased or arrested by the FBI or Homeland Security as a result of being "called out" by a fellow American?
The surgeon who performed the mascectomy on my wife told me Thursday afternoon that a fellow surgeon who attended medical school with him was briefly detained and questioned by FBI agents about his attendance at a town hall meeting and his prior attendance at a Tea Party protest. Who do you think "called him out"? Do you think that the present administration is placing those who attend such meetings under some level of surveillance because they are viewed as a threat to national security, or simply a threat to the President's agenda?
babbittd
08-10-09, 01:46 AM
Raz, one of our differences is that I do not think that when citizens criticize the warplans of their government, that actions constitutes a threat to national security.
However, I do think the present administration is asking for supporters to rat out dissenters because they're viewed as a threat to the agenda of the administration.
And 2 + 2 = 4.
babbittd
08-10-09, 07:36 AM
We've got problems at GOP headquarters:
http://voices.kansascity.com/node/5374
Republican Rep Jack Kingston of Georgia said about the (Palin's) "death panel" comment: "It’s a scare tactic, no question about it."
***
And from the Dept. of Historical Revision / the Shoe is now on the other foot:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/That-was-then-this-is-now-52608562.html
Angry Mobs Department: That was then, this is now
By: MARK TAPSCOTT
Editorial Page Editor
08/06/09 5:31 PM EDT
Democrats screaming to high heaven about those disrupted town hall meetings could use a little refresher on recent history concerning their partisans' conduct in 2005 in response to President George W. Bush's attempt to get Congress to move on a genuine Social Security reform.
My friend Jon Henke at The Next Right offers these tidbits:
· NW Progressive Institute, March 2005: "a boisterous crowd which frequently interrupted the discussion with shouts and hard nosed questions. ... Democrats in the audience who were interrupting the panel.... the crowd erupted in anger... Democrats in the audience started shouting him down again."
· Savannah Morning News, March 2005: "By now, Jack Kingston is used to shouted questions, interruptions and boos. Republican congressmen expect such responses these days when they meet with constituents about President Bush's proposal to overhaul Social Security."
· USA Today, March 2005: "Shaken by raucous protests at open "town hall"-style meetings last month ... Santorum was among dozens of members of Congress who ran gantlets of demonstrators and shouted over hecklers at Social Security events last month. Many who showed up to protest were alerted by e-mails and bused in by anti-Bush organizations such as MoveOn.org and USAction, a liberal advocacy group. They came with prepared questions and instructions on how to confront lawmakers."
agree with you... now pls fred move to political abyss before a mild mannered passerby gets the idea we're the internet equivalent of fight club.
Agreed. Thought that was already called for and done.
And I'll apologize for making it sound like I think all of the people at the town halls are racists - I don't believe that. But there's clearly a heavy current of plain ol' racism among many of the participants and they feel disturbingly comfortable in showing it.
Raz, one of our differences is that I do not think that when citizens criticize the warplans of their government, that actions constitutes a threat to national security.
However, I do think the present administration is asking for supporters to rat out dissenters because they're viewed as a threat to the agenda of the administration.
And 2 + 2 = 4.
Apparently we do have differences - but not about the two statements above. :confused:
I was a loud and vocal critic of G. W. Dumbass's Iraqi Adventure from day one. And I feared the "Patriot" Act for it's provisions and it's very name!
We've got problems at GOP headquarters:
http://voices.kansascity.com/node/5374
Republican Rep Jack Kingston of Georgia said about the (Palin's) "death panel" comment: "It’s a scare tactic, no question about it."
***
And from the Dept. of Historical Revision / the Shoe is now on the other foot:
It probably is a scare tactic. But it doesn't change my agreement in principle with what she said about government bureaucrats deciding who lives and who dies. My thoughts are posted in this thread as a response to WDCrob.
babbittd
08-10-09, 11:58 AM
Apparently we do have differences - but not about the two statements above. :confused:
I was a loud and vocal critic of G. W. Dumbass's Iraqi Adventure from day one. And I feared the "Patriot" Act for it's provisions and it's very name!
You misunderstood my first response which may not have been clear but did reference the hushing by the administration of people that criticized their warplans for Iraq. And still you implied that criticism of the government immediately after 9/11 constitutes a possible national security threat in the eyes of the government.
You misunderstood my first response which may not have been clear but did reference the hushing by the administration of people that criticized their warplans for Iraq. And still you implied that criticism of the government immediately after 9/11 constitutes a possible national security threat in the eyes of the government.
If I did imply such then I was (a) wrong, or (b) unclear in my presentation. I do believe that suspicious activity in late 2001 - early 2002 should have been reported, as it in fact was when the antics of some Muslim clerics alarmed airline passengers. But I most certainly did NOT mean that those who spoke out against invading Iraq should have been detained and/or harrased by Federal Agents.
doom&gloom
08-10-09, 10:05 PM
http://therearenosunglasses.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/sheeple.jpg
metalman
08-10-09, 10:40 PM
http://therearenosunglasses.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/sheeple.jpg
it's all looking up after 10 yrs... (http://www.itulip.com/sheeple.html)
http://www.itulip.com/sheepg5_low.gif
Georgia Senator Isakson (R):
I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin's web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized. How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You're putting the authority in the individual rather than the government.
...
This was thoroughly debated in the Senate committee. It's voluntary. Every state in America has an end of life directive or durable power of attorney provision. For the peace of mind of your children and your spouse as well as the comfort of knowing the government won't make these decisions, it's a very popular thing. Just not everybody's aware of it.
babbittd
08-11-09, 09:38 AM
Georgia Senator Isakson (R):
One would think that even Republican diehards wouldn't enjoy being blatantly lied to by Palin, but going by her popularity, that isn't the case.
Here's a link to the thread on Schumer's biometrics program, that's Schumer - DEMOCRAT - NY - lest anyone accuse me of bias for focusing on Republicans in this particular post.
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10560&highlight=biometric
doom&gloom
08-11-09, 10:47 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pCDyiFUv9XU/SoGMYfMFaUI/AAAAAAAAFhA/uEWmmYZt410/s320/Thanks+Mr.+President.jpg
doom&gloom
08-11-09, 04:32 PM
here's an "astroturf" update...
My local favorite libertarian radio talkshow host brought these to my attention -- good stuff!
http://www.editorsguild.com/LaborNews.cfm?LaborNewsid=1563
Labor Plans Two Mass Mobilizations In August
08/04/2009
Organized labor plans two mass mobilizations in August -- and beyond -- on health care and on the Employee Free Choice Act, interviews at the AFL-CIO Executive Council show.
Both campaigns are to counter massive business-backed advertising blitzes against both health care revision and against the labor law, which is the top priority of the federation, Change To Win and other unions.
The campaigns were discussed at council’s 1-day meeting July 28 at the National Labor College in Silver Spring, Maryland, just outside Washington. The campaigns are needed because the Democratic-run 111th Congress -- stymied by divisions within its own majority -- put off final decisions on both issues until after it returns to D.C. on September 7. Congress was scheduled to recess July 31 but may stay through early August.
Five congressional committees are drafting the health care legislation. In two key ones -- Senate Finance and House Energy and Commerce -- it has stalled due to Democratic divisions. The Employee Free Choice Act is delayed because key senators discussing changes in that bill are involved in the health care talks, too.
The delays give unions time, and the need, to mobilize, the staffers added.
The health care mobilization already started, and was going even as the council met. Unions arranged for 50,000 phone calls to be funneled to Congress on the issue on July 28. And on July 27, the Alliance of Retired Americans, the AFL-CIO’s affiliate for union and other retirees, arranged two conference calls, of 100 people each, to talk health care campaign strategy, Alliance President Barbara Easterling added.
And the Employee Free Choice Act mobilization aims at the fact that Democrats now lack the 60 votes needed to shut off a planned GOP-led filibuster against the bill.
“The important thing is to preserve the essential elements of the Employee Free Choice Act: Restoring the freedom to organize and collectively bargain, and not the details” of how exactly to achieve that goal, said AFL-CIO Organizing Director Stewart Acuff, who is directing the campaign.
“That’s the measure by which any tweaking of the law” will be judged, he added.
The council reaffirmed its strong preference for the legislation’s centerpiece:
Majority sign-up, where once unions get verified union election authorization cards from a majority of workers at a site, they -- not the bosses -- can choose between automatic immediate recognition of the union or a National Labor Relations Board-run election.
Other alternatives to majority sign-up, including mail-in ballots and quick NLRB-run elections, received scant discussion, staffers said. But they are not ruled out, Acuff added. “Both would be dramatically better than what we have now” under labor law, he said. Present law allows long campaigns with rampant employer intimidation and labor law-breaking. The Obama administration backs the Employee Free Choice Act.
Senate sponsor Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, also cautions that majority sign-up is still on the table. “Nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to,” he says of the legislation.
The Employee Free Choice Act mobilization includes tens of thousands of letters, hundreds of thousands of phone calls, the largest march in the history of Arkansas, and a coalition of 1,500 businesses supporting the bill. It’s all designed to push senators in 10 states, including Arkansas, California, Pennsylvania, Nebraska, Louisiana and Maine, to support the law and oppose the filibuster.
Labor’s motivation and mobilization for the health care overhaul, where it is working with Obama, is complicated by competing versions of the legislation, said AFSCME President Gerald McEntee, the AFL-CIO political committee chair, and others.
That mobilization drive also faces two more problems: Foes who simplify the issue and Finance Committee proposals to drop requiring all employers to pay for health care and to eliminate the proposed government-run competitor to health insurers.
“We reviewed what’s happened so far and talked about our success in beating back the idea of taxing employee health benefits,” AFL-CIO Legislative Director Bill Samuel said. But if Senate Finance decides to let employers off the hook and to ax the government-run competitor, “We’ll have to see” what to do, McEntee added.
In the meantime, his union alone is mobilizing an estimated 16,000 members to campaign for health care. It’s also running ads featuring union nurses talking about the need for health care reform for both their patients and themselves.
“We also did something we’ve never done before: The Health Care Reform Coalition -- a number of unions -- contracted with Working America on the campaign. For $50,000, they’ll cover a state. For $60,000, they’ll send in a roving team. We’ve put in $300,000 and the AFL-CIO has put in another $100,000,” McEntee said. “The president and the Democrats are trying to legislate in a very complicated area, covering one-sixth of the economy, and it’s hard to cover that in a good sound bite.”
AND...
http://www.redstate.com/absentee/files/2009/08/reform-for-hire1.jpg
http://www.redstate.com/absentee/files/2009/08/reform-for-hire2.jpg
I think it's time to bury this bill and start all over...
Let's take our time and do it right.
http://www.redstate.com/erick/files/2009/08/file01013.jpg
babbittd
08-12-09, 05:27 AM
the state of grass-roots confusion in the U.S.:
Rep. Robert Inglis (R-S.C.) told The Washington Post that, at a recent town-hall meeting, a man stood up and told him to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.”
“I had to politely explain that, ‘Actually, sir, your health care is being provided by the government, but he wasn’t having any of it.”
flintlock
08-12-09, 09:37 PM
About fifteen years ago Joseph Sobran said that "...most of the people who work for the United States government would be willing to work for any government. Had they worked for the Vichy French they would have dutifully helped the Germans round up the Jews, and had they worked for the Romans they would have politely walked in step down to the colliseum to watch the Christians be thrown to the lions".Awesome quote Raz. I agree with it. Many are mindless minions.
flintlock
08-12-09, 09:50 PM
the state of grass-roots confusion in the U.S.:
Rep. Robert Inglis (R-S.C.) told The Washington Post that, at a recent town-hall meeting, a man stood up and told him to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.”
“I had to politely explain that, ‘Actually, sir, your health care is being provided by the government, but he wasn’t having any of it.”
I heard about that and thought how funny it was.
And yes, I'm seeing a large percentage of gray heads at these town halls too. Half are probably there for a good reason, the other half out of pure irrational fear. I've heard scare tactics talking about things like "euthanasia boards".:rolleyes:
Someone else above said it best. Lets scrap this and take our time and do it right.
babbittd
08-12-09, 10:17 PM
I heard about that and thought how funny it was.
And yes, I'm seeing a large percentage of gray heads at these town halls too. Half are probably there for a good reason, the other half out of pure irrational fear. I've heard scare tactics talking about things like "euthanasia boards".:rolleyes:
Someone else above said it best. Lets scrap this and take our time and do it right.
It helps to explain the timeline
The town halls first gained media prominence, including most importantly from Fox News and Rush when that one very vocal woman was recorded and uploaded to YouTube. "HE IS NOT A CITIZEN!!!" You know the one.
This is what helped MSNBC to build their initial narrative that "everyone protesting health care reform is a birther."
After the town halls suddenly gained media attention, the professional lobbyists for both sides starting showing up.
The narrative starts to change again. We started hearing about threats to the older folks. Instead of the opposition being all about anti-socialism, it starts to be pro-medicare and the most sensitive nerve in the largest voting bloc (you folks in the AARP crowd) has been touched.
The RNC and whatever lobbying groups are against the various Democrat party bills have done a brilliant job of shaping the debate, changing the meme and forcing the Democrats to respond. It's been really fun to watch. I think "death panels" has to be the most outlandish piece of agitprop created in my short lifetime, but it has worked!
doom&gloom
08-12-09, 10:31 PM
The whole things has been a fiasco due to the "rush job" the Democans tried to
put on it. The Republicrats gaining the upper hand is a good thing this time
around after the garbage passed in the "rushed" Porkulus Bill and the "rushed"
Crap n' Tax bill. It was after the details of Crap n' Tax leaked out that people
sat up and took notice of the bum's rush they were getting by the far left
crowd in DC. Now, hopefully, this version of HC "reform" (which is now
being called "insurance reform" as it flounders) will die a merciless death and
everyone can get donw to crafting a good bill.
I liked that one clip of the Democan voter who said "Obama took more time
choosing his dog than you guys did on this bill" (paraphrased). Best line I
have heard to date and so true.
sadsack
08-13-09, 07:35 AM
It helps to explain the timeline
The town halls first gained media prominence, including most importantly from Fox News and Rush when that one very vocal woman was recorded and uploaded to YouTube. "HE IS NOT A CITIZEN!!!" You know the one.
This is what helped MSNBC to build their initial narrative that "everyone protesting health care reform is a birther."
After the town halls suddenly gained media attention, the professional lobbyists for both sides starting showing up.
The narrative starts to change again. We started hearing about threats to the older folks. Instead of the opposition being all about anti-socialism, it starts to be pro-medicare and the most sensitive nerve in the largest voting bloc (you folks in the AARP crowd) has been touched.
The RNC and whatever lobbying groups are against the various Democrat party bills have done a brilliant job of shaping the debate, changing the meme and forcing the Democrats to respond. It's been really fun to watch. I think "death panels" has to be the most outlandish piece of agitprop created in my short lifetime, but it has worked!
Apropos - I saw this linked on Patrick.net:
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/141833
Right-Wing Turncoat Gives the Inside Scoop on Why Conservatives Are Rampaging Town Halls
by Francis Schaeffer
The Republican Old Guard are in the fix an atheist would be in if Jesus showed up and raised his mother from the dead: Their world view has just been shattered. Obama's election has driven them over the edge. Consider Former Congressman Dick Armey. Several far right foundations and the multitrillion dollar health-insurance industry have teamed up with him to organize the far right foot soldiers of the Republican Party to intimidate people speaking on behalf of health-care reform. They are using my old shock troops -- given many of these folks were first energized by the Evangelical pro-life movement that my late father and I started in the 1970s. What we did to clinics they are now doing to congressmen and others speaking out for health care reform.
. . .
Conclusion: the Fascist Formula
Here's the emerging American version of the fascist's formula: combine millions of dollars of lobbyists' money with embittered troublemakers who have a small army of not terribly bright white angry people (collected over decades through pro-life mass mailing networks) at their beck and call, ever ready to believe any myth or lie circulated by the semi literate and completely and routinely misinformed right wing -- Evangelical religious underground. Then put his little mob together with the insurance companies' big bucks. That's how it works -- American Brown Shirts at the ready.
What's the results of the fascist formula for the rest of us? Well, think how this "method" worked against Dr. Tiller's abortion clinic and how that story ended. In this case a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to save our economy from going bankrupt because of spiraling health care costs may be lost, not because of a better argument, but because of lies backed up by anti-democratic embittered thuggery. The motive? Revenge on America by the Old White Guys of the far right, and greed by the insurance industry.
What Can Be Done?
It's time that this whole shabby (and insane) business be exposed, vilified in run out of town on a rail by whatever responsible Republicans -- if any -- that are still in the party and who want to see the fortunes of their party revived. Republican leaders taking insurance industry money via lobbying firms and using it to organize what amounts to roving bands of thugs not only need to be exposed but thrown out of the public debate forever. They should become absolute pariahs.
It's time to give this garbage a name: insurance industry funded fascism.
Ghent12
08-13-09, 08:20 AM
Apropos - I saw this linked on Patrick.net:
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/141833
Call the other guys fascists? Check.
Mention business interests involved only on the other side? Check.
Compare the opposition to supporters for a heinous act? Check.
I think I've seen this playbook before. It's used by every unintellectual author making any sort of argument for anything.
I like the way babbittd described the play so far. I think we're in Act II, while Act III will play out after the upcoming "counter-demonstrations" and finally Act IV will end the tragic play with lots of murder and/or suicide, just like Shakespeare.
doom&gloom
08-13-09, 10:47 AM
:p
People here take sides too. I find that funny.
The DC crowd is really all ONE side, and it is NOT your side.
babbittd thinks this is all some "republicrat plot" while the Democans
line up to keep drug prices high. Go figure.
Dood -- when DC "rushes" anything YOU get the shaft! Parties don't matter.
Get a clue. Once they hit DC YOUR vote means nothing. All that matter are
dollars. Stop thinking about Republicrats V. Democans and start thinking
them against us. You'll be much better for it in the end.
Apropos - I saw this linked on Patrick.net:
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/141833
I know Frankie Schaeffer very well. He suffered from polio as a child and had to live in the shadow of his father who was a brilliant theologian. In addittion to a failed career as a B Movie director, all of this has caused an undercurrent of steaming anger throughout Frankie's life.
He used to be a reasoned apologist for truth, but over the past five years or so he has become a near lunatic. :(
Jim Nickerson
08-13-09, 02:23 PM
I know Frankie Schaeffer very well. He suffered from polio as a child and had to live in the shadow of his father who was a brilliant theologian. In addittion to a failed career as a B Movie director, all of this has caused an undercurrent of steaming anger throughout Frankie's life.
He used to be a reasoned apologist for truth, but over the past five years or so he has become a near lunatic. :(
Readers should consider that having a father who was a brilliant theologian might make any sane person "crazy" in one respect or another because there may be no gods, and if such were to be the case, then a "briliiant theologian" is an oxymoron, and a son who ultimately rejected such a father's "brainwashing" probably from birth might not in fact be a lunatic.
Raz, what you appear to be doing here is judging Schaeffer based on your knowing him VERY well. How well can we actually know anyone when most of us lack ability to KNOW what anyone else is thinking or why, and when even if the "tell" us what they are thinking, how do we know they aren't lying?
You have engaged in an ad hominem attack while putting nothing forward to discount or refute what Schaeffer wrote. I took his comments as possibly coming somewhere close to being truth.
I consider your comments to discredit Schaeffer as a failure.
Jim Nickerson
08-13-09, 07:29 PM
Actually I find this guy Frank Schaeffer interesting. Here is one link to more about him in which he notes: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/08/01/losing-faith-in-the-u-s-religious-right.aspx
"[Our family was] famous but famous in a subculture. Unless you had been involved in a certain small slice of American culture, you probably never heard of me or my dad," he said.
"That's the way real history happens as opposed to the way one would imagine it happening," said Mr. Schaeffer, the prodigal son of the clan, who documented his family's strange odyssey in Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back.
As the book's title implies, something else happened: a reaction to the movement he helped build that is filled with such regret and self-loathing that 20 years later, he still feels the need to shout mea culpa whenever he gets the chance.
Readers should consider that having a father who was a brilliant theologian might make any sane person "crazy" in one respect or another because there may be no gods, and if such were to be the case, then a "briliiant theologian" is an oxymoron, and a son who ultimately rejected such a father's "brainwashing" probably from birth might not in fact be a lunatic.
Raz, what you appear to be doing here is judging Schaeffer based on your knowing him VERY well. How well can we actually know anyone when most of us lack ability to KNOW what anyone else is thinking or why, and when even if the "tell" us what they are thinking, how do we know they aren't lying?
You have engaged in an ad hominem attack while putting nothing forward to discount or refute what Schaeffer wrote. I took his comments as possibly coming somewhere close to being truth.
I consider your comments to discredit Schaeffer as a failure.
I should not have referred to Frankie as "a near lunatic". That wasn't fair.
I should have described him as I knew him to be back in the mid-1990s: an overbearing, disingenuous loudmouth.
I saw him being interviewed by Rachel Maddow, and while the first five or six minutes weren't bad, the last two minutes were almost total demagogic lies.
In 1993 I wrote a letter to The Christian Activist complaining about a slanderous article they published by a Russian priest. (Frankie was the editor.) He published my letter, editing out EVERYTHING critical, and making it appear to be not only supportive, but deeply grateful on my part for printing the ignorant diatribe of this Russian priest against Western Christians !!! I wrote him again complaining about what he'd done but never received a reply. His conduct toward me was nothing less than despicable, so I hope you'll forgive me for my attitude towards Frankie Schaeffer.
No one needs to "discredit" Frankie. He's done an excellent job of discrediting himself. He has betrayed not only the pro-life movement, but the unwavering teaching of the Orthodox Church since its beginnings in A.D.33. http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles8/Michalopulos-An-Open-Letter-To-Frank-Schaeffer.php
Your first paragraph attempts to defame Dr. Francis Schaeffer by implying that Frankie has abandonded theism in general and the Christian faith in particular, and insulting all theologians. You seem to have a real mean streak, Jim, when it comes to anyone who believes in God.
Not to be overly contentious here Jim, but aren't you judging me? How did you know what was on my mind or in my heart?
By the way, I actually agree with some of what Frankie said, especially about the insurance industry. But his support of a man who not only promotes procured abortion, but infanticide as well, is a scandal to all Orthodox Christians.
Feel free to consider my words concerning Frankie Schaeffer any way you choose. I could care less.
babbittd
08-14-09, 12:18 AM
according to the LA Times, one House Panel is removing the so-called "death panels" provision from their version of the bill:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-health-end-of-life14-2009aug14,0,4670272.story
even as it says in the article that: "In reality, the provision was designed to allow Medicare to pay doctors who counsel patients about planning for end-of-life decisions. The consultations would be voluntary and would provide information about living wills, healthcare proxies, pain medication and hospice."
More confirmation that the Republicans have won the information war.
Even better is that as Governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin issued this proclamation in April of 2008:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:_qjXL_3J08EJ:www.eeo.state.ak.us/archive-50122.html+"HEALTHCARE+DECISIONS+DAY"+palin&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. WHEREAS, in Alaska, Alaska Statute 13.52 provides the specifics of the advance directives law and offers a model form for patient use.
WHEREAS, it is estimated that only about 20 percent of people in Alaska have executed an advance directive. Moreover, it is estimated that less than 50 percent of severely or terminally ill patients have an advance directive.
cont.
For anyone that didn't think Palin was totally full of shit, there you go.
babbittd
08-14-09, 12:36 AM
Glenn Beck on CNN 18 months ago - tearing the "American Health care system" to shreds and there is more of this video from after his full-time return to the air floating around.
An FYI for anyone that didn't think he was a paid actor.
I have a hard time believing that most of the on-air personalities, including on the radio aren't just paid actors that don't believe most of what the political stuff that they say. They say what pays the bills and more.
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bX1rLv_hNeI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bX1rLv_hNeI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
flintlock
08-14-09, 11:20 AM
The truth about town halls. This guy has a great blog with a lot of good insider info on politics. A former congressman who is not afraid to tell you how things really work in Washington. He called the Election result, the Palin controversy, all to a T.
http://leboutillier.blogspot.com/
The first thing that needs to be known about Congressional Town Halls: they are a taxpayer-funded gimmick to justify franked (free) mailings to promote the event—and thus the Congressman holding the Town Hall.
flintlock
08-14-09, 11:23 AM
Beck can be a real drama queen at times. :D
doom&gloom
08-14-09, 09:07 PM
Better a drama queen than a Black Queen...
http://www.breitbart.tv/06-flashback-pelosi-tells-anti-war-protesters-im-a-fan-of-disruptors/
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