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billstew
07-30-09, 12:40 PM
US finsec corruption : Fort Knox probably has not held any Gold whatsoever since the Nixon Shock...

The Vietnam conflict and its immediate post war finsec outcomes probably drained it completlely dry.

To even imply that Fort Knox holds any Gold may be foolhardy -- as there has not been an audit since the 1960s.

sn1p3r
07-30-09, 12:45 PM
any links or proof?

jpatter666
07-30-09, 01:29 PM
Don't forget to include that the moon landings never happened.

xela
07-30-09, 03:30 PM
any links or proof?
honestly, this wouldn't surprise me one bit..any other reason to prevent audits?

kingcopper
07-30-09, 04:25 PM
I saw a video on one of the discover/history channels that documented an audit in the mid 1970s. Maybe I was hallucinating and I'm not going to waste time looking for the tape but I saw what I saw.

sn1p3r
07-30-09, 05:52 PM
Technically you might be right, this article says it's held at the Fed

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/82193

ThePythonicCow
07-31-09, 01:04 AM
Technically you might be right, this article says it's held at the Fed

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/82193

I wonder if we're missing something here. This is beginning to feel to me like we gold bugs are potential victims of a giant "three shells and a pea" game.

The central banks, especially those of the G7 (Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom, and United States) would I presume like to perpetuate paper currencies, whether they be dollars, a basket of currencies or special drawing rights.

Unless their fundamental monetary control fails, those who have sought to get more gold (China, Russia, and us gold bugs) risk ending up on the short end of this play, along with the Wall Street investment banks, investors in the likely corrupt GLD and SLV EFT's, the failing western industrial companies, the American regional banks (once commercial real estate blows up), the hedge funds (who got hit hard in late 2008 and may be the buyers in this latest stock market pop, at risk for another blow) and other hapless victims (such as investors in dotcoms and McMansions.)

Perhaps the controversy over the gold in Fort Knox is a shell game. Perhaps it doesn't matter if there's gold in Fort Knox or not. Perhaps what matters is that they won't tell us; as one more element of discrediting the idea of a precious metal basis for the worlds dominant currencies.

The devaluation of one or several of the worlds dominant paper currencies does not insure gold is a winner. Only the collapse of the currently dominant world central banks ensures that. Such a collapse is unlikely in my view and would be part of a catastrophic failure of civilization.

If gold bugs (including perhaps nations such as China or Russia or Saudi Arabia) get too uppity, then they get squashed, as before in 1933.

cobben
07-31-09, 01:27 PM
"Perhaps it doesn't matter if there's gold in Fort Knox or not. Perhaps what matters is that they won't tell us"

And if there was an "independent" audit, would you believe the results?

What matters is whether folks trust their guvm'nt . . .

sn1p3r
07-31-09, 02:55 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again....


INTO THE LIGHT I COMMAND THEE! :D


they REALLY don't want us to look behind the curtain so we must rip it down.

bpr
08-11-09, 12:57 AM
The devaluation of one or several of the worlds dominant paper currencies does not insure gold is a winner. Only the collapse of the currently dominant world central banks ensures that. Such a collapse is unlikely in my view and would be part of a catastrophic failure of civilization.

Very good points, all. The endgame for the current currencies may already be in play but if there is a coordinated move to SDRs or some similar fiat-based reserve, the CBs could easily start a new shell game all over.

These guys work behind closed doors when times are good. What will happen when unemployment is over 20% and every state is issuing IOUs?

Tim9
09-13-09, 03:03 PM
As was pointed out,,,anything is possible. Fort Knox could be empty,,,,,then again,,a few years back,,,,a book was written about World War 2 plundered gold. Peggy and Sterling Seagrave's Gold Warriors: Americas's Secret Recovery of Yamashita's Gold
http://www.rense.com/general49/sece.htm
As I said,,,who knows,,,if the USA actually did get hundreds of tons of plundered gold which Japan had looted from all over Asia,,,,maybe Fort Knox has much more gold than anyone can immagine.

aaron
09-13-09, 03:29 PM
Maybe they do not allow an audit because they have a lot MORE gold than they are supposed to. The life of a fiat currency is quite predictable, even to a government official. Perhaps they have looked at the same exponential curves on this web site and followed them to their logical conclusions. They may even read history books (god forbid)!

If I were the fed/treasury, I'd want to accumulate gold. When the dollar no longer functions effectively, they can just flip a switch to a gold-backed currency and they can continue in power, and America continues on.

In fact, we like to theorize it is China propping up the gold price over the past year. It could just have easily been the fed/treasury. They have said they want inflation. They have said that gold is an important reserve asset. They say they have all the gold accounted for. Why not just take them at their word?

The real conspiracy is the Fed/Treasury/U.S. government is not as short-term in their thinking as they would lead us to believe. The dollar's decline has been on-going for years and years. They want to cover their collective asses just like we do. When the time comes for a gold-backed currency, we are going to find that the U.S. has thousands of tons more gold they are supposed to.

jtabeb
09-13-09, 09:43 PM
Maybe they do not allow an audit because they have a lot MORE gold than they are supposed to. The life of a fiat currency is quite predictable, even to a government official. Perhaps they have looked at the same exponential curves on this web site and followed them to their logical conclusions. They may even read history books (god forbid)!

If I were the fed/treasury, I'd want to accumulate gold. When the dollar no longer functions effectively, they can just flip a switch to a gold-backed currency and they can continue in power, and America continues on.

In fact, we like to theorize it is China propping up the gold price over the past year. It could just have easily been the fed/treasury. They have said they want inflation.

The real conspiracy is the Fed/Treasury/U.S. government is not as short-term in their thinking as they would lead us to believe.

I have often thought along these lines as a potential alternate possibility. Great consolidation of these points. (and added some that I had not considered to boot!)


Really a fine and thought provoking post!

Thank you.

Tim9
09-14-09, 10:11 AM
Yes,,,I tend to agree with both of you Jtabeb and Aaron. While so many are very quick to dismiss the Fed Reserve and the USA Treasury as being so short sighted and incompetent,,,,I also wonder if it's possible that maybe they are a bit sharper than they portend.
Having the worlds reserve currency for over 50 years,,,,and having the ability to print at will,,,then what would stop them from purchasing bullion on the open market and stashing it away. Even if the Golden Lily Legend is untrue, that would not stop them from increasing gold stored at Fort Knox. That scenario actually makes sense to me, as these guys are not stupid,,,,they also studied history.
However,back to the Golden Lily and the looted WWII Axis gold,,,,I tend to think the Legend is true,,,,,I tend to think that the USA actually did get all that gold(suspected to be over 160 tons),,,,and they have kept it secret partially for the same reason DeBeers regulates the supply of diamonds on the open market. Keep it rare !
Have a great day--Tim9

walenk
09-14-09, 10:46 AM
Why would Nixon wait until Fort Knox was bare before getting off the gold standard? Even I never thought nixon was that dumb.

Tim9
10-06-09, 02:08 PM
Sorry for such a late reply,,,,
Anyway,,I also can't imagine Nixon or any Fed Chief alowing such a thing as emptying the reserves. Another point I find interesting is the audit(public display) of Fort Knox in the 70's.
The interesting thing about this was the people who were allowed inside Fort Knox, were only allowed in one room. All the other rooms/vaults were locked and no one was allowed to view the contents of those other vaults/rooms.
Here is an interesting article I found about the visit in the 70's

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>By David L. Ganz, Numismatic News
September 10, 2009
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>http://www.numismaster.com/images/uploaded/60807/ArtLargImg7634.jpg
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<META name=keywords content="fort knox, coins, numismatics, numismatic news, david ganz, visiting fort knox">America's gold bullion depository at Ft. Knox, Ky., was built in the 1930s to be impregnable to enemy invasion, but 35 years ago on Sept. 23, 1974, it was invaded by 120 members of a press contingent that I was part of, and a dozen members of Congress and representatives of the Mint and Treasury Department.

It remains a gold-letter day for those who made it to the "A" list and attended, and a bitter day for those who were not allowed into Ft. Knox, but even more so for the journalists who had relentlessly argued, publicly, that the visit would never be allowed in the first place because the government had secretly trucked the gold out.

Even for the jaded, the experience was nothing short of amazing.

Visiting Ft. Knox, then as today, is virtually unheard of. The Treasury and the Federal Reserve, both of whom serve as co-administrators of the facility, have a strong policy against it. Dozens of requests are turned down annually. Even former Presidents are denied entry.

Visit turndowns were efficient and specific: "The Depository is a classified facility. No visitors are permitted, and no exceptions are made."

No one from the public other than President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who made an inspection trip in 1943, has been inside before or since, the 1974 occasion.

Reversal of this policy on a one time only basis came as a result of a series of peculiar events that resulted in a congressional demand for an audit of the bullion depository, and a first-hand viewing of the gold deposited there.

Prior to Ft. Knox, centralization of the nation's gold supply in New York was policy until it was recalled that the British seized it during the Revolutionary War and Nazi forces might try to do likewise.

It was determined that a military reservation was needed to act as protector, and that the nation's gold and silver reserves would be separated. West Point, with the nearby U.S. Military Academy was chosen for silver; for gold it turned out to be the Ft. Knox military reservation outdid Lexington, Ky.

About a year and a half was taken in a project that included 16,000 cubic feet of granite, 4,200 cubic yards of concrete, 750 tons of reinforcing steel, and 670 tons of structural steel.

Gold was transported by caravan across eastern America, reported afterwards in the daily newspapers who marveled at the ingenuity of the building, its interior vaults and symbolic meaning of the original secure location.

The cost of construction was $560,000 and the building was completed in December 1936.

By the end of the Truman Administration in 1952, some $2 billion in gold had been repatriated abroad to our allies. Suspecting that this was not the whole story, the incoming Eisenhower Administration was faced with demands for an investigation and promptly conducted one.

An advisory committee was organized under the directorship of Treasury Secretary George Humphrey, and with the consultation of former Treasury chief John Snyder. Rules were formulated and an audit conducted.

Reporting to the President, the committee said it "was impressed with the evidence of the adequacy and effectiveness of the audit and controls methods that are being followed ... Your committee has no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Treasury's accounts." For two decades, the result of this audit was accepted.

Vaults were sealed after that audit in 1953.

Vault doors containing this gold really are little more than compartments within the giant vault. They have been sealed with a special tape designed to show breakage and tampering. Hot sealing wax covers both ends, holding them to a card that was signed at the time of the dealing by three representatives of the government.

One persistent rumor that there was no gold left in Ft. Knox resulted in the first opening of the depository to the public in 1974. The cause: Dr. Peter David Beter, a Washington attorney, whose book "Conspiracy Against the Dollar," makes an attack on international monetary reform and the Rockefeller interests.

Beter charged that "powerful Americans have secretly permitted $20 billion worth of gold to be removed from Ft. Knox." The weekly publication National Tattler picked up the story, blazed it into headlines, and members of Congress soon began to receive inquiries from constituents.

Ed Busch, of WPAA Radio, Dallas, Texas, gave Beter a forum to continue with his charges. The Treasury initially refused comment, not wishing to dignify the charges by way of rebuttal. Soon, however, congressional pressure for an answer mandated a statement, made informally, that Beter's view was "ridiculous."

Heightening suspicion on the part of Beter, and others, was the continued refusal by the Treasury to open the facility for inspection by anyone - including members of Congress.

Reason for this was well-explained by Mint Director Mary T. Brooks, whose Mint bureau had full charge over the depository facility. "The policy against visitors is longstanding," she commented in an interview with me in 1973.

Security, to be sure, was a dominant factor, but in the minds of some, there could be only one reason: something to hide.

For me, the trip to Kentucky was a long one. Signs up for Ft. Knox press contingent were all over the Louisville airport. Ft. Knox personnel handling the press were present (not terribly large). An army bus awaited to take us to the depository located on the military reservation.

Among those on the bus besides me: Clifford Mishler [then a senior editor at Numismatic News, now ANA president], Robert Simon of the Chicago Sun Times and Bill Barnhill of The Tattler (which started the whole Ft. Knox expose). Joining later: Margo Russell, editor of Coin World, and Jim Miller, publisher of COINage. My position was unique - a freelance writer then taking a day off from law school to have a story of a lifetime.

My notes from that day reflect the times: gas at 50.9 cents a gallon. (It was priced 9 cents higher in New York).

Soon, a sign was visible on the road: Ft. Knox: Home of the 194th Armored Brigade. Traveling along Brandenburg Road turnoff, which leads into the military reservation, there are some railroad spur lines, rusted and weed infested, indicating lack of use. I remember thinking, the gold didn't get out that way.

As we moved still closer to the fort, however, the spur lines criss-cross the entire area and these aren't rusted, or weeded, and seem to be well used. I started to wonder.

Helicopters and small aircraft seemed to be in the air all the time.

The bus turned on to Bullion Blvd. The bus continues until it runs into the perpendicular "Gold Vault Road." One hundred yards, or so, up is Ft. Knox Bullion Depository.

At the entrance to Gold Vault Road was a sign and a large speaker. The sign states in bold, large capital letters: HALT. STATE YOUR BUSINESS IN LOUD SPEAKER. DO NOT ENTER WITHOUT PERMISSION.

Inside, I met up with Charles Stahl, president of the Economic News Agency and publisher of Green's Commodity Market Comments. I asked him what would happen if no gold was to be found. Stahl said that the price of gold on the free market would rise.

"But there's no way it's not here," he said, noting in addition that it was not even the world's greatest hoard.

"There's $60 billion in the Fed in New York," he noted, "the largest hoard there contains 402 million ounces." Ft. Knox, he reminded me "has only 147 million ounces."

Recognizing Rep. Philip M Crane, R-Ill., I asked him why he had suggested a tour of Knox.

"I suggested it because of rampant rumors that significant portions of our gold reserves were gone," he replied.

"I suggested it to William Simon [Secretary of the Treasury] because, if coupled with an audit, would serve to help gain confidence in the monetary system.

"I'll be satisfied with the audit," he said, noting that there was a previous one in 1953, just after President Eisenhower took office.

Crane noted he had held one of the 400-ounce brick (approximately 27 pounds) and noted its worth of $65,000 on the free market.

"Exciting" was the way he put it. "It was impressive how much value can be found in such a small package," he remarked.

Today, the value of the same bullion cube is worth over $360,000.

Ed Busch, of WFAA Radio questioned Crane closely.

Another member of Congress, Clair W. Burgener, R-Calif., on the House Banking and Currency Committee, was among those present at Ft. Knox. In an interview with me, he said it was both "interesting and educational and reassuring" to have been there.

"Concern by some of my constituents," was the reason he cited for his presence. "The audit is timely," he said, noting that it was "over 20 years" since the last one.

"Personally," he said, "I'm convinced that only a conspiracy or a military invasion could get the gold out of here."

Other members of Congress arrived for the tour.

Reporters drew sticks to see who went in first. The space is so crowded and limited inside that only small groups could go in. Jim Miller and I were chosen to go in with the congressional delegation.

The guards frisked everyone including congressmen with a sensitive metal detector.

Maneuvering around the narrow corridors, the group entered a large staging area and carefully examined the 20-ton steel vault door - proclaimed "impenetrable" by the guards.

There is a 104-hour time lock on the vault, and, usually, it is kept closed. Since we went off the gold exchange standard in 1971, there was little call for gold from the depository.

(Until Aug. 15, 1971, foreign governments could ask for physical gold in exchange for U.S. Federal Reserve Notes at the rate of $35 a troy ounce, necessitating physical removal.)

Entering the vault, which is the size of a comfortable four room apartment, we saw a dozen compartments spread over two floors. Each was sealed with a special tape designed to show if any forced entry had been made.

Mint Director Brooks took a scissors and prepared to cut the tape, breaking the seal. She did so, and an officer opened the vault.

"I'm very happy to show the country that the gold is here," she declared.

"I knew it was here, of course." So did nearly everyone else who came, most believing that the government would never show off an empty vault to the press or public.

Seeing that much gold for the first time is overwhelming. Initially, the glare from the light and flashbulbs on the shimmering metal is blinding Rep. John Rousselot, R-Calif., was next to me and asked a guard about an unsubstantiated rumor that Beter popularized: that there was an escape tunnel from the building that was used to take out gold bullion.

Indeed, Rousselot was told, there is a tunnel in the lower level. He asks to see it and was rebuffed. An argument ensued going up the food chain to Mint Director Brooks, who approves the visit. I stick by Rousselot's elbow and take out my camera to start taking pictures.

"No pictures here," a Treasury official said.

"Why not?" Rousselot demands. "He's an American!" Pictures allowed.

We found the tunnel sealed and dated as the vaults are. Explained an official from the depository, "All vaults have this type of escape device." It can only be opened from inside the vault and has an intended use only when the door is shut, the time-lock set and someone mistakenly trapped in the vault.

The escape tunnel is about the size of a sewer pipe, and as Rousselot and other members of Congress noted at the time, it moves horizontally and can only he crawled through with some degree of difficulty.

The seal was broken at the delegation's request, and the door opened. Conclusion was that the tunnel - which opens inside the depository building, but outside the vault proper - was not a viable means for anyone to try to remove substantial quantities of gold. The escape could only be made outside the vault, not the building itself.

For a coin collector visiting the facility, there was one terribly ironic note. More than a quarter of the gold that was viewed appeared to be coinage gold - .900 fine, obtained from the melting of United States gold coinage.

It was difficult not to be struck by the irony of seeing the end result of the destruction of so many formerly collectible coins.